Will the Evolution Debate Soon Be Extinct?

Scientist says new fossil discoveries will shut down the discussion

Within the next 15 to 30 years, the debate about evolution will end, and the evolution side will have won, according to leading paleoanthropologist Richard Leakey.

A flood of new discoveries in the fossil record will force people to credit evolution, Leakey predicts.

"You can lay out all the fossils that have been collected and establish lineages that even a fool could work up...There's no explanation for this change going back 500 million years in any book I've read from the lips of any God." But he insists he's not against religious belief: "I see no reason why you shouldn't go through your life thinking if you're a good citizen, you'll get a better future in the afterlife."

Not only that, Leakey suggests that acceptance of evolution would help solve some of our political problems. It would help us to respond better to "global crises" caused by new strains of disease, and could help to end racism, "if you get to the stage where you can persuade people on the evidence, that it's solid, that we are all African, that color is superficial."

According to Gallup's 2012 poll, 54% of Americans believe in evolution, while 40% are against it, and think God created humans in their present form. And those numbers haven't shifted much since the poll began in 1982.

Can new discoveries end the evolution debate? And should evolution be taught in public schools? Vote in our Debate!

[Neo_NtheMatrix]

When Christ returns all talk of evolution will be extinct. Man longs to find a way to replace God. Sorry libbers, there is but one true God and you will submit to his will.

[LogicNeeded]

One true god? Which god are we talking about? There have been thousands of gods worshiped throughout history, so why is the Christian god the true one? And before you say "The Bible says so," that's like using The Hobbit to prove the existence of hobbits.

Also, why must people assume that evolution=liberal?

[ir0nw0lfe]

You know, I have no problem with advocating your beliefs or standing by them but have you ever heard of bruising the fruit? I do not believe in Evolution. There's nothing new about claims like this. As a matter of fact there have been several archeological discoveries that have upheld and confirmed the timelines and passages in the Bible. In spite of what were once thought to be contradictions in earlier discoveries. We were just missing the pieces. Perhaps the next 15 or 20 years will bring discoveries that thwart evolution or it's simply about having faith in spite of what you think you see or know. Maybe it's just man's imperfection that causes us to make leaps of logic that conclude Alien Seeding is more realistic than Creationism. IDK. I know this much, it's possible to have all the evidence on your side and be completely wrong and have none of the evidence on your side and be completely right. I'm not much of a liberal but I'm sure that having some liberal views doesn't mean you're not Christian.

[LogicNeeded]

Discoveries that have confirmed the Bible? Could you give me sources?

[ir0nw0lfe]

Start with the book Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. It's not flawless but interesting points are made.

Also check out:http://www.answersingenesi s.org/articles/nab/does-archae ology-support-the-bible. one of dozens of site that explain archeology confirming scriptural events and places. google archeolgy and the Bible. Even science fails to explain the very big and very small. Scientist have recently proved that a small particle of an electron can actually physically existing 2 places at the same time. I cant remember the name of the particle but I find it if you want. My point is that even science has contradictions that cannot yet be explained. Imperfect understanding does not prove there is no God.

[Isaac-Asimov]

"Maybe it's just man's imperfection that causes us to make leaps of logic that conclude Alien Seeding is more realistic than Creationism."

I'm unsure of the point you're trying to make here. We're discussing Evolution, not Scientiology. There's a pretty massive difference.

[tigergoddess]

If evolution did exist, why do we have both monkeys and humans on this earth today? I think evolution is a bunch of BS.

[LogicNeeded]

I think your argument is a bunch of BS, as it has been explained numerous and numerous times. We did not evolve from monkeys, but from a common ancestor. Do actual research before making yourself look bad.

[ir0nw0lfe]

LN, the argument maybe wrong but the thought is still right. If we took all the fossil discoveries up till the present and made each one a page in a book where each page represented even a century it would look like you were reading a dictionary with a word or two under every letter and thinking you now knew the whole language. There's still not enough scientific evidence to prove evolution without theorizing the gaps. And yes, many gods have been worshipped throughout history, but there is only one God. But that's an entirely separate belief and not my place to make that choice for you.

[LogicNeeded]

You keep saying there is only one god, but you never explain HOW YOU KNOW THAT.

[dances-weebles]

*smile* divergent destiny

[tigergoddess]

Okay, I stand corrected Logicneeded, Some people apparently did come from monkeys.

[LogicNeeded]

Definitely not soon. The sad truth is, no matter how much evidence you throw at them, they will still have their fallacious arguments and their willful ignorance to block it with. The debate will eventually end, but only when the older crowd dies out and gets replaced with a more open-minded one.

[drow13f]

I don't want to argue or offend, I would just like to ask a few questions so I can understand where you're coming from. Would you be willing to discuss it?

[Jimbo]

Facts will never change the mind of crazy creationist. They don't believe in science.

[LaserWhite]

I believe in science; but not evolution. Evolution is historical science (which is extremely affected by bias) and is not experimental science (which is science that can be proven).

[LogicNeeded]

They believe in science up to a point where it does not benefit them and contradicts their beliefs.

[LaserWhite]

Leakey has been lying the entire course of his miserable life; Remember Pitldown Man? that was suppose to shut down the debate also...... the piltdown man was in the news for 40 years as the long lost missing link. 50 phd dissertations were written. 2 generations of students were i indoctrinated, the 1953 edition of encyclopedia britannic covered 23 pages, the London Illustrated news had a front page cover..... only to find out 40 years later it was all a fraud. a hoax. all the worlds scientist couldnt prove it a fraud, because they were seeing what they wanted to see..... ideology. not science.

[ir0nw0lfe]

You sir, are a wealth of information. My hat is off to you!+1

[Pix924]

First of all, Richard Leakey was born long after Piltdown was "discovered" and his father (Louis) thought there was something off about parts of that skull and tried to figure out who created the hoax before and after it was demonstrated to be faked. Some say, Louis might even have written a whole book about who did, but did not publish it. It could be stressed that he was instrumental in planting the idea of the missing link, which he continued to look for evidence of his whole life....
Neither Leakey supported Piltdown, neither lied.
Piltdown was created in the days when most science was a hobby.
I don't have all the answers either but the biblical timeline has always been troubling to my mind. "Man" is most definitely way more than 20,000 years old.

I like that there are people who have not been "indoctrinated" (as you put it) also -- your inquiring and skeptical minds are always refreshing to see, even if I don't agree with you. Question authority.

[LaserWhite]

Lets not forget this one either:
America proclaimed its own fossil man, when a single molar was found in Nebraska. The Nebraska Ape-Man was discovered in 1922 by Harold Cook in the Pliocene deposits of Nebraska. Though it was only a single tooth, Professor Henry Fairfield Osborn, head of the prestigious American Museum of Natural History in New York City, declared it to be man's early ancestor. Officially called Hesperopithecus, Nebraska Man was an immediate hit, complete with a two-page spread in the Illustrated London News.
From a single tooth was drawn a whole family. The naked ape-man, sporting his club, was flanked by his naked wife gathering roots for supper. Behind them were a herd of camels and a herd of horses, whose fossils had been found in the same deposit, but were extinct in that location long ago.
The imaginative newspaper coverage and the timing of the find made a big impression at the 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial. Nebraska man was never introduced into the trial, since the lead paleoanthropologist Dr. Fay Cooper Cole had some misgivings about it, but it was "there" nonetheless.
To the embarrassment of many scientist the tooth was later discovered to belong to an extinct species of pig........It was shortly after the Scopes Monkey Trial that some more fossil bones of the owner of that tooth were found, and it was not human after all. Rather, an extinct variety of pig had been on display. To make matters worse, in 1972 the pig variety was found still alive in Paraguay.

[LaserWhite]

I never said Leakey was linked with piltdown man, simply that he, like other evolutionist, see what they want to see when it comes to supposed missing links.

[ded]

So sure, there have been some silly hoaxes and some silly mistakes, especially by the gentlemen scientists of the early 20th century. The thing about the "missing link", is that it's just something that journalists like to talk about. If you accept evolution, you'll know that the chimpanzee is the closest living relative of humans. There are many fossils of apes that lie on the lineage between the human-chimp common ancestor, and modern humans.

If you don't believe in evolution, you are contradicting what has been the overwhelming consensus among educated people for a century. If you are going to do something so intellectually radical, at least do it with some gravitas. You can't just point to an anecdote about a silly hoax or error 80 yrs ago, or something you heard said in a religious context, and calmly say: "See? The entire world's educational institutions are wrong." It may be that you know other people who say they don't believe in evolution. I think it will help you to see the mistake you and they are making, by first seeing things in perspective and appreciating the enormity of that claim.

[ir0nw0lfe]

I believe science can reinforce Christianity not compromise it. Science can answer the how I'll let God be the why.

[LogicNeeded]

It hasn't done a very good job.

[ded]

(Hi ir0nw0lfe, I ended up writing you a message in a different thread; posting it again here so you get the notification.)

ir0nw0lfe, I enjoy reading and respect your posts on this site. I'm slightly to the left of you on some matters, but still your posts make a lot of sense. I'm really surprised that you are anti-evolution, and even more so that you are suggesting to people that they read internet creationist pseudoscience as a source of argument against real science. I posted a link to all articles on evolution in the main evolution thread. Here it is again; 317,000 peer-reviewed articles, have a quick skim:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed ...

Evolutionary biology is central to understanding medical genetics and the human genome. Every respectable university has molecular biologists, biochemists, ecologists, geneticists, etc. Governments give large amounts of funding to biological and biomedical science. That's hundreds of thousands of people spread over many countries and many decades: all of their lives' work would be meaningless deluded nonsense if evolution weren't true. You don't really think that do you?

How can you say that the evidence for evolution is lacking? I'm sure you are capable of seeing how ridiculous it is for a couple of men in an internet comment thread to casually say something that invalidates a major strand of western intellectual history.

[ded]

"My issue with evolution is that I don't buy the argument the man evolved from apes."

"Evolution is a tool to assist is survival of species not changing one into another."

There are some people who accept much of evolution, but don't accept that man evolved from apes. But it sounds like you reject all of evolution except for change within species. That's a very extreme form of evolution-denial. You seem to be saying that a wolf and a fox and a goldfish were all created separately, and that the similarities between the wolf and the fox are not the result of the wolf being related to the fox. That seems crazy to me, and I'd like to try to convince you that it is incorrect.

Do you accept the accuracy of geological dating techniques? So when geologists say "this rock is 400 million years old", do you believe them?(E.g. geologists working in the oil industry, or paleontologists; the science is the same.)

If so then one of the clearest ways to see that species have changed into one another is the way fossils are arranged in rocks of different ages. 500 million years ago, the only vertebrates are fish. Then 350 million years ago there are fish with limbs / amphibians. Later there are land reptiles, and then later there are mammals. What I just said doesn't depend on believing in evolution, I'm just giving the facts about what types of fossils are found in what age rocks. So if you don't agree with anything I just said then please stop right here and say so.

My question for you is: under your model of independent creation of species, why do the species appear in the fossil record in this sequence which is 100% consistent with the theory that the mammals evolved from reptiles, and the reptiles from amphibians, and amphibians from fish. Did the creator that you propose deliberately make them appear in this sequence?

Have to keep this to a sane length, but the other thing I'd mention is our DNA. You can line up a human genome next to a chimp genome and a dog genome and a fish genome, and they show the pattern of similarity you'd expect: chimp and human most similar, then dog, then fish. Again, why is this hierarchical pattern of similarity present in our genomes?

"Did you read LaserWhites post in some of the threads. He did a much better job than I did explaining the flawed methodology in evolution theory."

No, really, he just pointed to a couple of anecdotes about hoaxes in the mid 20th century. That's OK for a conversation over a beer in a bar, but it is absurdly inadequate when you are trying, in public, to say that the entire world's educational establishments are wrong! Please, you can definitely try to argue that evolution did not happen, but you can't do it casually! It's not a small thing you are saying!

There have been some recent books published by prominent evolutionary biologists trying to put forward the evidence for evolution in a clear way. Either of these would be a good read:

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Evolution-True-Jerr...
http://www.amazon.com/The-Greatest-Show-Earth...

[ded]

Oops, sorry, I didn't see LaserWhite's long post and I mistakenly thought you were referring to his short posts. I'll read his long one.

[Kelly]

Isnt it amazing how mere man can try every way in his febel mind to discredit GOD? When GOD made the earth and heavens with HIS big boom and when HE created everything like HE wantes it to be, why cant mankind see it took HIM billions and billions of OUR YEARS but only a wink of HIS eye.

[dances-weebles]

so, then why can't an all powerful god tweak things from time to time? mere humans do it all the time, why not god?

[Hatchy]

All powerful that can do all sorts of crazy creation stuff, but makes humans with genetic deficiencies which lead to all sorts of illness and disease. Oh, that's right. He gave us free will and we created the diseases of the world. So if he's all knowing he knew this would occur. Why create us if he KNEW THIS WOULD HAPPEN! Sounds like he enjoys punishing his creations. If I was a God in the sky and could create intelligent beings I would make them genetically impervious to all diseases and let them live however they please. It seems pretty vain to make your creations worship you and threaten death and torture if they disobey. I wouldn't care what they did, I'm a freaking god for god's sake!! why bother myself with the mortals and their stupid problems. Oh, that's right. GODS DON'T EXIST!!!

[Kelly]

Face it!!!!! God made mankind perfect. Mankind screwed themselves up. Dont blame GOD for our ignorance! We have 'free will' which means taht we can kill ourselves or poison ourselves or destroy the world if we as a civilization so deem it. FREE WILL means just that. We have control over our bodies while we are in the flesh. Why would GOD want to make robots that just do as He designed us to do? It wouldnt be real if He did. Face it! GOD in the one and only GOD Always was and always will be. Choose to dwell in Heaven with Him or not. It's YOUR choice.. I know the truth, It is up to you to find it.

[phrank]

The debates been over for a long time as it pertains to those intelligent enough to understand the science that already backs up evolution. What leakey means is that the layout of physical evidence now available makes it irrifutable to all but the absolute thickest believers in magic. According to religion the earth is only, what, 7000yrs old? We have documented history that proves beyond a shadow of ANY POSSIBLE doubt that man has been here longer than that, and I'm sorry, I believe what I see with my own 2 eyes more than I believe some story of magic told by people who only want control, not just of my actions, but my deepest thoughts and beliefs. Denying evolution is like denying your own endocrine system exists.

[dances-weebles]

there has never; not for one second, been an argument about this in my mind. no matter what the evolutionists, or the creationists say i'll continue to believe in creation.

now, i really hope that there aren't any of those silly people who believe that the flintstones were real and actually had a pet dinosaur (or that the earth is somewhere between 5 and 6 thousand years old) standing around gleefully rubbing their hands together because this antiquated gnostic-christian pastor has finally come to his senses because it also doesn't mean that i have stopped believing in evolution. sound confusing? it's really not, simply because of the fact that both creation and evolution can exist side by side... evolution is nothing more than continued creation. after all, if this world is the creation of an all powerful god, then why can't (s)he effect changes when (s)he wants to?

(or that an all knowing god come up with something like the ornitorrinco for no other reason than to goof with darwin's mind?)

[tigergoddess]

I take my comment back, SOME people obviously came from monkeys. I guess the apple doesn't fall to far from the tree. I am glad that my tree is God.

[POLYMATH257]

Evolution won in scientific circles 100+ years ago. We're just waiting for the public to catch up.

[Tom]

How about this? All those who do not agree with the theory of evolution go on strike?! Sooner than later, they will all die from the flu, and the debate will end.

C'mon, guys. Because we understand evolution, we have made modern medical advances. Don't deny that!

[Cammie39]

No evolution should be stoped all together. It is just one big lie. We did not evolve from monkies. We are human. Humans evolved yes. Monkeys are still monkeys now aren't they. They haven't evolved at all now have they. Us humans, have gotten smatter, produced more things in this world. Monkeys, have they done any of this. Nope, most certainly not. Monkeys are still monkeys. Homosapians and Monkeys can not mate and produce a child for they are from two different speicies. Just cant happen. Helle poeple,wake up and smell the roses. Oh wait, we evolved from them too right. Please, get over yourselves. We did not evolve from monkeys and it is because of this evil teaching that our children seem to think they from animals and act like one. Get rid of evolution all together. It is a major danger. Our nation is falling and falling fast, Jesus isnt too happy with this world. If all Christains were to get together in this nation and take a stand and take back what was once a nation based on Christianity, we all be back to normal. But what is stopping that from happening hugh? well, it is because everyone is too busy arguing who is wrong and right over the bible and the verses. Dang, that bible isn't perfect. But Jesus is the only one perfect. Get over yourselves and open your eyes people. we are all in a world of danger if this evolution kick keeps up.

[ComeToJESUS777]

The ONLY evolution that has ever happened is micro evolution (minor changes). There is NO credible evidence for macro evolution (one kind of animal evolving into another). And you're right, monkeys are STILL monkeys, and were STILL humans. If "macro" evolution is true, then why aren't monkeys still changing? Did nature just decide to get happy where it is and stop evolving?? Haha. Anyways. People will continue to believe it, and the main reason for it is because they're afraid if they have to admit there is a God then there might be someone over them telling them what to do. And oh no, they wouldn't want that. It is a satan led belief. If there really wasn't a God then why do they try SO HARD to prove He doesn't exist? Cuz satan is the driving force behind them and they don't even realize it. And yup, they sure are in a world of trouble. Remember, JESUS said "if you hurt one of my little ones, it would be better for you if a mill stone were placed around your neck and you be cast into the sea", and those that are spreading evolution are hurting those who believe in JESUS, so WOE BE TO THEM!!!!

[Tom]

I love your enthusiasm. I really do. However, I would like you to learn more about evolution before you speak. Thank you.

[ComeToJESUS777]

WHAT FOOLS. All the so called "proofs" they've ever had have been proven wrong years ago, and yet they still insist on using them. It is impossible to even think that there isn't a God and that this earth just happened by chance. You know what the probability of that would be? 1 out of (a number so high that a piece of paper from one end of the universe to the other end could not fit this number). These fools have said for years "if you can prove God, I might believe in Him". Well, soon (not exactly sure when cuz only the Father knows) the tribulation will occur, and when it does, satan will come at the 5th trumpet and proclaim that he is god, then you'll have your "proof" of god, wont yah? You want proof of a god, well you'll get one, but IT WONT BE THE RIGHT ONE, and you can accept his mark (666) and be thrown into hell when it gets lit on judgement day, along with the rest of those who don't accept JESUS. May JESUS have mercy on ALL fools who buy into the religion of evolution (EVILution).

[moonshinegrrl]

Evolution will never be accepted by some because they need the crutch they have by believing in a god.

[Truthinesss]

Its not a crutch. Smh... learn what you speak of before you speak.

[moonshinegrrl]

I will speak whenever and say what I want. Religion, God whatever is a crutch that people lean on when they can't stand on their own. That why people say stuff like " it was God's will" etc instead of just facing facts.

[Thumper]

Indeed; here are the real facts: I believe that the universe just came out of nowhere into a multi-dimension by accident. Mankind has come about by pure chance, an accident. The sun and all its' planetary bodies formed and fell into place without any intervention..... it just happend;.......... Life came from nonlife (or from a rock)......... stirring slime eventually formed into a fish which gradually developed to amphibians (frogs, etc.) and frogs evolved to snakes, lizards and dinosaurs, which magically turned into birds, mammals (apes, horses, etc.),(yes... you read right... all those birds you see outside your study window are really dinosaurs of past) and eventually developed into modern men.
You, your friends, strawberries, cockroaches, computers, etc., was brought into existence from an explosion in the vacuum of space billions of years ago.(The same kind of explosion as one in a printing factory that produces a Websters' dictionary.)
This is the only crutch I need.

[Truthinesss]

I don't think this will all be over in 20 years, and I don't think it should be taught either, seeing as nothing is solid, its just an idea.

[CultOfReason]

But don't you differentiate between "ideas" with evidence versus ideas without evidence? Shouldn't one take a higher order of precedence in relation to what you are going to believe?

[Truthinesss]

The evidence is weak. And regardless, its still just an idea at this point, so no. Until it's 100% proven no doubt, then nope.

[CultOfReason]

Few things, if any, can truly be proven with 100% certainty. But with a preponderance of the evidence supporting evolution, one has to make a stand at some point.

When you say the evidence is "weak" I have to wonder how much you've actually studied up on the topic (other than reading about it on the Internet). The scientific community accepts evolution as fact. Do you know something they don't know? If so, a Nobel prize awaits you.

When you say it is just an idea, I have to wonder if you really know what a scientific theory is and how it differs from just an idea.

[Truthinesss]

1) I am taking a stand. I don't believe its the truth.
2) I have read on evolution quite a bit, but I am no expert scientist, as I doubt you are. But from what I've seen with arguments on both sides, for and against, I choose not to believe it. If I had to guess, you push the subject not because you believe in the science so strongly, but because you'd rather be on whatever side that's against anything religious related.
3) yes, I am aware of the difference of an idea vs. a theory, thank you. I was in class that day.

[CultOfReason]

1) "I am taking a stand. I don't believe its the truth."
So, you choose to take a stand on the side with no evidence. That shows intentional, willful ignorance.

2) "I have read on evolution quite a bit, but I am no expert scientist, as I doubt you are. But from what I've seen with arguments on both sides, for and against, I choose not to believe it."
Reading about evolution and actually understanding what you've read are two different things. I suspect you have not understood it to the degree necessary to make an informed decision.

" If I had to guess, you push the subject not because you believe in the science so strongly, but because you'd rather be on whatever side that's against anything religious related."

On the contrary. I push strongly because truth is important to me, as it should be to you. And how do you ascertain the truth of something if not by following the preponderance of the evidence? Seems to me you are more into "truthiness" (what feels right from the gut) versus real truth (what can be shown to be true via evidence).

Also, you are aware that many religions accept evolution as fact, but simply assert that God had a hand in it? So, accepting evolution does not necessarily negate one's religious beliefs (unless you are a bible literalist and believe the world is only 6000 years old).

3) "yes, I am aware of the difference of an idea vs. a theory, thank you. I was in class that day. "
Somehow I doubt that since you have asserted that evolutionary theory is "just an idea". If you truly understood what a scientific theory is, you would not have made such a statement.

If truth is important to you, my suggestion is to study harder and make a better effort at understanding what you are reading. Learning is an ongoing process. There are resources available on the Internet and in the Library to help you. PBS has a wonderful website at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/ as does Berkely at http://evolution.berkeley.edu/ .

[ded]

Here are the results of searching for the term "evolution" in the US government-maintained search tool of the scientific literature:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed...

It returns 316,890 hits: more than 300 thousand separate published papers in recognized scientific journals. People are not working in this field and being funded by governments to work in this field because it is just an idea. This is mainstream science and it has been for years.

If you think that evolution is just a controversial "theory", then you are not just confused about the natural world, but you are confused about the society you live in -- to a first approximation, all educated people in western societies understand that evolution occurred.

[ir0nw0lfe]

Did you read LaserWhites post in some of the threads. He did a much better job than I did explaining the flawed methodology in evolution theory. Thanks for the links. I will go through them. I have the same problem that LaserWhite has in that the data for evolution has huge gaps. Now let's be clear. I believe changes that occur within a species as it adapts to environmental factors. No problem there. My issue with evolution is that I don't buy the argument the man evolved from apes. This is looking at one piece of the puzzle and saying its the whole picture. Creationism to me is simply acknowledging intelligent design. There are some who take every word in the Bible as literal. I dont think that's accurate and the more research I've done trying to invalidate portions of scripture gave only shown me that the historical references to places and events can be verified as accurate. I believe God created Man and the planet. Evolution is a tool to assist is survival of species not changing one into another.

[CommonSense]

Of course not. We already have proof. No matter what we find fundies will continue to deny evolution.

[SicNtwstdF]

I think evolution is a bunch of BS, along with the theory that god created us. No one will ever know who created us and for us to spend our entire lifetime trying to figure out who did, we are wasting our time. Enjoy life and who cares who created us, live your life in the moment, we only get one chance.

[CultOfReason]

Many people derive pleasure and meaning in life by uncovering the answers to these tough questions.

[phrank]

Nice sentiment. People are welcome to their curiosity, and medicine uses the information creatively, but nobody should be shoving THEIR beliefs on anybody else.

[steve]

I was always taught that science, evolution, and creationism all work together. God created man is a metaphor, meaning over time, via evolution. It makes perfect sense.

[CultOfReason]

Your line of thinking is a step in the right direction, but many people still take a much more literal interpretation of the bible.

Also, why invoke a god at all when natural processes can be used to explain much of what we see? And for things we don't yet fully understand, there is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" but continuing to explore the natural causes.