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GAY RIGHTS

Uganda's Anti-Gay Bill Linked to US Evangelical Leader

Should American religious leaders condemn it?

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by Mary Noble

Senior Editor t

Uganda's anti-gay bill is likely to become law after the government promised it to Ugandans as a "Christmas gift." Being gay in Uganda is already illegal, but the law would add further punishments, including life in prison. Ugandan lawmakers claim that the infamous "kill the gays" provision has been struck out, but a US State Dept source has information suggesting that the death penalty is still included.

Despite its harshness, the bill has been tied to some prominent US evangelicals, notably Bryan Fischer of the American Family Association. He tweeted, "Homosexuality now against the law in Uganda, just as it was for 200 years in the US. It can be done." Fischer's Twitter feed makes clear that he thinks the "kill the gays" provision has been removed.

Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council has also been accused of favoring the bill after he praised Uganda's president last month. The FRC later explained that Perkins opposes the anti-gay bill and instead advises treating gayness as a psychological problem.

Needless to say the proposed law has also triggered American outrage, including from religious leaders. Some have called on evangelical pastor Rick Warren to condemn the bill as he did in 2009.

The US government could take a stand by withdrawing aid to Uganda, which has totalled nearly $1.8 billion in 4 years.

Via the BBC, the Christian Post, and Twitter.
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Should American evangelical leaders condemn Uganda's anti-gay bill?

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Comments (view in Forum)

  • o
    Sharpshooter
    !
    We have sufficient issues here to be concerned with. Evangelicals are supposed to be religious leaders not political tools.

    "Kill the Gays" isn't a great idea in my books, but Uganda has plenty of other problems we seem more than happy to stay out of.... Why is that?
  • o
    Sharpshooter
    !
    @Cool_voter I agree to a point. Here's a problem we ALWAYS run into.... Christian values and ethics(?) are meaningful to Christians; the rub is, not everyone is Christian.

    Muslems don't give anymore thought to Christian standards than Christians do about Buddist or Druid standards.

    As for what would Jesus say? We don't REALLY know, last time I checked he's still dead.

    There are those who would argue homosexuality is against the christian value system while others , like you, who see killing to be more of an issue.
  • o
    Cool_voter
    !
    @Sharpshooter
    @Sharpshooter all sin is against Christianity.
    Jesus was ok with hookers, he married one.
    Why can't the rest of his followed get over gays...

    And we do know what he would say, actually.
    Do unto others as you would want done to you.
    Love thy neighbor
    Love thy enemy.
    Turn the other cheek.
  • View all 23 replies >
  • u
    seedtick
    !
    This is a Ugandan issue. Their cultural, legal, and religious tendancies will decide what is done here. The US Evangelicals are only there if the Ugandans allow them to be. Having worked in Africa for a few years, I can tell you that every situation in any of these countries can become volitile at any given moment. So, the Evangelicals are better off if they just keep quiet...otherwise they may be kicked out...or worse.
  • o
    Cool_voter
    !
    @Denizen_Kate that's exactly right.
    Start taxing the churches, because they are so politically active these days, stop sending foreign aid to everyone, And stop this "Christian nations shit"
  • MarkJM
    !
    To Denizen and Cool Voter, here's a real simple solution to that: Cut their foreign aid. They can have their anti-gay agenda, we save taxpayer dollars, win win.
  • View all 6 replies >
  • DerivePI
    !
    Government has enough to do without involving itself in personal choices. As for the Church, its response should be one of education and compassion. The condemnation for homosexuality, as with any other sin, is complete. But, the opportunity for redemption and forgiveness is just as relevant as it is with all the sinners that attend church every weekend.
  • o
    Cool_voter
    !
    This isn't "condemning" homosexuality.
    These religious leaders are in favor for genocide. That goes to how their moral compass for compassion..
  • DerivePI
    !
    @Cool_voter -(your misrepresentations aside) When the stove top is red hot and you see a child reach for it, is it compassionate to let the child burn?

    That being said, it has long been recognized (at least in this country) that the relationship between God and man should not be interfered with by governments. However, to muddy things up, the prosecution of pedophiles, the spreading of HIV and the exploitation of the disabled should definitely be included in the purview of government authority.
  • DerivePI
    !
    @Cool_voter - OK, I guess I will need to address your misrepresentations:---

    "These religious leaders are in favor of genocide" - Even Mary found it necessary to note "Fischer's Twitter feed makes clear that he thinks the "kill the gays" provision has been removed." She is very good at writing on the line between truth and liberal propaganda and exceeding that boundary, as you clearly do is worse than disingenious.---

    "So you think killing gays is alright?" - A clear use of False Attribution. You should get a job at the Levitt Institute.
  • Denizen_Kate
    !
    @DerivePI "Fischer's Twitter feed makes clear that he thinks the "kill the gays" provision has been removed." Doesn't say whether or not he's in favor of the death penalty for gays, just that he understands that provision is no longer part of the Ugandan anti-gay legislation.

    IMO, anyone who claims to be a follower of Christ should be condemming not only the Ugandan government, but most especially Bryan Fischer and Tony Perkins and their organizations. Silence is complicity.
  • u
    Realthinker
    !
    Just because this story is written to make it look like Christians in the US forced Uganda to pass such a law doesn't make it so. It's a pity you don't recognize Christophobia when you see it.
    Homosexuality is a sin, however it is no worse than any other sin such as theft, adultry, or murder. In God's sight they are all equal and all forgivable if the repentence is genuine. You cannot judge all of Christianity by the Fred Phelps types or the hatred from the leftists.
  • o
    Cool_voter
    !
    @Realthinker the story wasn't written to make christians look bad.
    Christians in the us, specifically ones in power, are in favor of eliminating an entire people, because they don't groove with your ideals.
    What if there was a kill the Christians bill?
    Now how can you see this being anything but religious people once again being ok with violence against a group you don't agree with...
  • MRMacrum
    !
    @Realthinker - And where in my comment did I condemn all of Christianity. Perhaps you are too sensitive to "any" criticism of the folks of the Religious Right. Notice I wrote "Extreme Evangelical Right in this country." I would hope you would agree that this particular arm of Christianity represents a token number of the Christian faithful in this country. I certainly hope so. From the church goers I interact with, this seems to be the case. Most are reasonable live and let live type folks. Unfortunately, the faithful have , like the Muslim world< allowed their extremes to take over their message in quite a few cases.

    And I did not think these Christian fundies "forced" Uganda to do anything. It is their implicit endorsement I find totally obnoxious.
  • o
    Cool_voter
    !
    @Realthinker the Christians in power that are supporting a bill to kill all the gays.
    Did you read the article.
    Can you read at all?
    Is it really Thursday?
  • View all 17 replies >
  • Thegrif
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    @Cool_voter guess I will die then.
    However gay is not a religion, yet!
    I don't care who is gay or not. But thats Uganda's law.
    What does America have to do with it, we git plenty of issues here in the USA and plenty of Americans want other peoples money. Why don't we give them some of that money we waste trying to interfere in what other countries are doing?
  • Thegrif
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    @Cool_voter some christians may be do some killin of gays, not me and not a lot of others either. So lets not just throw a blanket of gay killer on all Christians. I think in any sub set of any society (like Christians), there are some good and some bad. Like some cops are really good, and some are not. I personally don't believe in killing unless it's to protect life from death or great bodily harm, or a deer at hunting season or a gator at gator season, those last 2 are food.
  • View all 6 replies >
  • WMCOL
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    Just another event in Christianities long history of perpetrating violence and injustice against fellow human beings. Crusades, Witch hunts, slavery, now killing gays.
  • o
    Cool_voter
    !
    Don't forget Christianity's super lame war against science!
    The earth is flat, there is no sun, space is an illusion of gods magnificence!!!!
  • mimi57
    !
    @Cool_voter How does that apply to the Topic?...That's a totally different subject, I'm sure that one will come around again, but you are way off the subject. Don't worry, you'll get other chances to bash Christians. You're
    not a bigot are you?...didn't think so..
  • o
    Cool_voter
    !
    @mimi57 no Mimi, I'm not a bigot, because I don't support a bill to kill all the gays...
    I'm a decent human being that doesn't need an oppressive religious doctrine to pretend to have morals.
    Furthermore, as a woman, I emplore you to look deeper into Christianity's war on women.

    Now how did my comment apply...

    Ok Christians are supporting a kill the gays bill.
    Christians have also supported movements to kill "witches", and used their religious doctrine to feel better about keeping slaves, and keeping women out of power, killing people that though the earth wasn't flat..

    It's all relevant sweety, because I'm showing that time and time again, religious men in power (christian men) have oppressed humanity as a whole to feel better about themselves.
    This time it's kill the gays, kill evolution, kill carbon dating, what's next, oxygen is the devils tool, the Color blue is a demonic color?

    Remember the church would kill a musician for playing an augmented 4th during the renaissance. They thought it was scary :(
  • jessejaymes
    !
    @Cool_voter We can oppose (and I do) many of the things you say, here in the USA. What are you going to do about Uganda. That nation has been killing off their own on one pretext or another as long as I can remember and I can remember 60 years. What are you going to do?
  • o
    Cool_voter
    !
    @jessejaymes obviously I'm not doing much.
    What I am doing is saying the it is wrong for a christian to say they are a Christian, probably just for votes, and then go on to support a bill to murder people for being who they are.

    What are you doing?
    Do you support this bill?
    Because I support a kill the Christians bill worldwide.
  • View all 17 replies >
  • mimi57
    !
    I feel bad for anyone Gay in Uganda, but it really isn't our problem. We should speak out against it, sure. However,
    in our own Country we have children as young, or younger than five years old being sold in the sex slave industry.
    America has a huge human trafficking problem, with thousands of children and teens forced into prostitution,we
    really need to handle our own problems first and we have many.
  • martydotcom
    !
    The issue is Evangelicals rather than " love thy neighbor" "judge not lest ye be judged , prefer Leviticus: he who lays with another man shall be stoned.
    To encourage this law just places the hypocritical nature of these zealots on display.
  • WMCOL
    !
    Uganda is about 90% Christian and the proselytizing was done by Westerners, who taught the "evils" of homosexuality as greater than other sins, which means Christians everywhere should condemn killing people becaue of their sexual orientation. Christians have a duty to speak against the Ugandan behavior and "re-Missionary" them but this time with the true teaching, preaching and practices of Jesus Christ.

    Even in this country when sodomy was illegal, death was never the penalty.

    There's probably some confusion between metaphorical death in religion sense because of sin, and literal death by humans. Christians have a New Covenant with Jesus and no longer stone the sinner to death.
  • Denizen_Kate
    !
    Mimi, saying that "it really isn't our problem" is exactly how evil thrives in the world. Silence equals complicity. Mr. Fischer and Mr. Perkins should be loudly and vocally condemned by American Christians for their actions in Uganda. America's trafficking problem is a different issue altogether. I hope I am wrong, but citing that problem on this comment thread would seem to be an attempt to equate homosexuality with child pornography and human sex trafficking.
  • mimi57
    !
    @Denizen_Kate I just don't see how we can solve all the worlds problems. I said It should be spoken out against,
    but we have many of our own problems. I don't understand the outrage of the Left at some things and not others.
    Women all over the world are tortured, children are raped daily...why the outrage over the gays? Yes it is sad,
    but there are a lot of issues far worse, or just as bad, and the Left never addresses those. And , no, I am not
    equating homosexuality with pedophelia. I just find the silence deafening when it comes to the heinous acts
    committed in our own country, it seems women are far more prone to speak up for birth control pills, than they
    are to show outrage at obvious and blatant human trafficking, child abuse, raping of babies, etc., if they
    want to speak out on human rights violations worldwide, or here in this country, it's time. Sandra Fluke took
    center stage with her ' war on women' baloney, we have far worse things going on...maybe her time in the spotlight would have been better spent speaking about real problems.
  • Denizen_Kate
    !
    @mimi57 - The only way I find even superficially fulfilling is to write to my representatives about stopping financial aid to countries who permit atrocities on their soil, and Uganda certainly qualifies as one of those against whom I would write, urging that we withdraw our funds. I say superficially because I don't think they really listen to us, their constituents, but I don't have the resources to do more. Maybe if more of us would do the same, it would have some effect. And just because "the Left" is outraged over American so-called Christians backing the atrocities of a foreign government doesn't mean "the Left" isn't equally outraged over other even worse actions around the world. We, here, are only commenting on those stories that Politix chooses to include.
  • o
    Cool_voter
    !
    Who could forget John 3:17
    "God hates gays"
    And the even better mark 12:13
    God loves McDonald's
    And last but not least job 4:20
    God is pretend...
  • jessejaymes
    !
    Come on now Dan. While your point is well taken to a degree, Germany did not practice the genocide of their own Jews. They took it outside their country and in fact many of the largest killing factories were in Poland and other places. History tells us that when Germany kept it within their borders early on the world did exactly that. Stay out of it. I'm not saying we should be silent. We shouldn't. We should oppose it verbally, we should cut off their aid. But what do you want to do about it? Do you want boots on the ground to protect some people you can't even identify as to how many there are or who they are? Do you want to war for an ideal? That's what GW Bush said he was doing in Iraq.
  • Dan_Tien
    !
    @jessejaymes I was drawing a moral comparison in response to previous posts that amounted to "Not our problem". I am not suggesting military intervention. That would be a cluster****. Official censure of the policy by Uganda would be appropriate. I would support cutting off foreign aid to Uganda for any reason. I'm not sure what your point about German concentration camps was meant to say. They worked people to death in domestic labor camps but created death camps in other countries where they shipped people for extermination means...? I also don't understand how Uganda expects to end homosexuality by rounding up gay people and putting them in prisons together.
  • jessejaymes
    !
    @Dan_Tien My point about Germany was that you're not really comparing apples to apples. Uganda isn't on a world wide mission to kill all the gays, Hitler was. But more importantly, Uganda has been systematically killing off their own people ever since we can remember. It's what they do and a whole of people are going to die because someone else didn't like them and pointed the finger. It's how they operate. I would seek condemnation at the UN, withdraw all aid immediately and revoke the passports of those "Christians" who support this bill. Not much else we can or should do.
  • View all 6 replies >
  • u
    RobertJHarsh
    !
    Remember how I keep saying US Xitian Fundies are a problem? Well here is an example. But on the Muslim side, try to be gay in Egypt or Saudi Arabia and see how far that gets ya. Homosexual rights brings out the worst in all religions. I simply do not understand persecuting people whom have certain sexual preferences (except the child pedos...kill those f-ers on sight). However, as an atheist, we keep quiet about that because there are persecution against us as well, albeit much smaller.
  • jessejaymes
    !
    You are correct to a point. Being an atheist in America generally "only" subjects you to verbal abuse. However in many parts of the word you can be killed for it. And in Kentucky you can go to prison for a year for it. I don't support killing of gays, that's simply unacceptable. But what can be done about it in Africa? In a landlocked country. What are we going to do? Send aircraft carriers to launch drones to attack.......who?
  • jessejaymes
    !
    After reading these comments I find myself wondering where all these concerned liberals were when Idi Amin was butchering more than a million of his own people in Uganda? Where was this outrage when the Tutsi massacred nearly a million Hutu in Rwanda? Or during the long line of warlords who have systematically made the Congo a killing field of massive proportions? Why are you not equally screaming about the atrocities in Sierre Leon, Liberia and Nigeria? You may well have been saying the same thing you're saying today but nothing was done and nothing will be done here because other than verbal condemnation and the cutting off of aid (both of which should be done since no aid goes anywhere in Africa except Swiss bank accounts) there is nothing that can be done. I don't understand where the vitriol is coming from? Is it because the targeted are gays? How are gay lives any more important than the multi millions who have slaughtered in Africa over the past 50 years? We've done nothing about all those other things and we will do nothing about this. My suggestion is that our government yank the passports of those religious organizations fanning the flames here but then that would mean that hundreds of thousands of kids go hungry and perhaps die of starvation? So what is the solution? Other than just ranting on Politix?
  • MRMacrum
    !
    Not sure why you bring up old news. Certainly there were and still are loud voices condemning the innumerable tragedies that are a fact of life in many parts of Africa and elsewhere. The recent muzzling of US righteous indignation I think can be blamed on our current focus on things domestic. Unfortunately loud voices do little if government does nothing in response. And frankly Africa is a continent that is and will be left to its own devices for the most part. It is not right , but there it is. Personally I feel that the US has tried to shoulder more than its fair share of humanitarian causes in recent years. It is time for the rest of the developed world to pick up some of our slack and even maybe step it up some. I am tired of our country being "expected" to do something in every tragic occurrence out there. We have our own more local problems to work through at the moment.
  • jessejaymes
    !
    @MRMacrum I read you and respect your opinions but on this one you're confusing me. We both know why our government does little in Africa other than in oil producing countries. OIL. And big oil is one of the corporations that actually run America. In other words there is no financial gain for them in most of Africa. It's hard to speak to Africa because if I said the same thing about an African country that I would say about say Estonia ( a white country) I will be instantly labeled a racist. But I'm going to say it anyhow and hope that you understand what I'm getting at. Africa is as tribal as any place on earth. They simply do not accept that tribes can get along. They never have. Despite strong mineral wealth the Congo has been a succession of dictators and massacres and atrocities since I was a child more than 60 years ago. Yet it doesn't seem to be putting much of dent in their overpopulation. And that wealth is never used to benefit the people. All the outside influence in the world hasn't changed that. UN troops have been in the Congo off and on for decades. Nothing works. The same for numerous other African countries.

    Bill Gates has poured literally billions into African nations trying to teach them to modernize. Where are the results? We give every single nation there "aid" and it goes to the dictators banks and things go on pretty much as they always have. In the Muslim third worlds they war over religion. On coastal Africa (Nigeria and so on) they war over religion and the rest just war. But so do we. The difference is I guess the level of sophistication of weaponry and the level of propaganda on selling war. But you confuse me when you say "it's not right" that Africa is left to their own devices. Trillions have been given to various countries and yet nothing changes. I don't understand what you think should be done and then you turn around and say you're sick of meddling and that we have more domestic problems. I agree with the latter part but I don't agree that Africa should be intervened in by any country. To my way of thinking the situation in Africa is a giant example of the statement "for an addict to break a habit they first must want to break the habit". I don't see Africa changing. The situation in South Africa since the end of apartheid now finds blacks in the majority at the same level of poverty as they were under whites. The thieves in charge are now black. Only real difference.

    You're obviously an intelligent man. I'm old and my education is dated. Maybe I'm just missing solutions a younger person can see but for the world of me, I don't see what the point is in pouring money and effort into Africa beyond what is being done. They massacre each other by the millions and still starve to death because of over population. Gates and the WHO have spend billions trying to stem HIV but it continues rampant because of married men who frequent prostitutes and then take it home. It's 10 times worse than here. You give them grain and some rebel group takes the grain by force. It's a quagmire and I don't see the solution.
  • MRMacrum
    !
    @jessejaymes - I think we are more on the same page than you think. I too have had a life time of witnessing Africa struggle. A combination of built in tribal issues and outside exploitation has created a continent that seems to be intent on continuing a downward spiral. I also have no clue what to do. And I think neither does the US government other than to get in the same exploitation line with the rest of the developed countries. It is not right. But until the Africans realize that their petty tribal and religious stupidity is gaining them nothing while giving away the very resources that could make them rise in the global economy. Until they find leaders who are for them instead of exploiting them they will be condemned to the pitiful existence that makes up many of the lives over there.

    I just wish do gooders from other nations would stop expecting the US to take the lead all the time.

    And no, I do not take your comments as racist. I hope you did not take mine that way either. The issue is definitely wrapped around race for some, but not me.
  • Post Removed by Moderators
  • u
    tomincali
    !
    it is none of our business what another country has for laws. we need to step out of the role of wanting to be the rulers of the world and take care of our own.

    if our so called leaders would mind their own business they would be too busy to stick their noses in the rest of the worlds . we all need to forget the global nonsense and think USA .
  • u
    CommonSense
    !
    Right just like it was none of our business when Hitler gassed the Jews.
    We should take care of our own first, so I don't think in light of the present circumstances we should invade Uganda but if we were debt-free and had enough money saved over the years to avoid debt in a war then I would say let's invade Uganda! Human rights are for everyone, a bully doesn't get to decide you don't get to have them just because that bully is in charge of a country.
    The UN will be no help on this one. The problem with the UN is that it accepts any state as long as it's generally "recognized", it's like a club for humans that have a pulse. We should form a League of Democratic Nations that only allows democracies in it.
  • u
    Cheenoguy
    !
    Church should be a sermon and/or discussion about how the congregation can be better people not about how bad everyone else is.
    That being said if a church is going to talk about what's wrong with other people and this law comes up they should speak against its harshness at the very least.
  • Denizen_Kate
    !
    Let's start by immediately revoking the tax exempt status of all religious organizations and churches backing this despicable, hateful law. Let's continue by urging more vocal and public condemnation of these horrible men calling themselves Christians by those in this country who claim to be real Christians. Unless you identify and agree with those assisting the Ugandan government from their safe little havens here in the U.S., SPEAK OUT, loudly and often.
  • Ashstop
    !
    @woodtick57
    Actually, Christians worship the same God that you will now down and worship at the judgement, did you know there are no unbelievers in Hell? They just believed in him too late! When I said read up on difference in the God of Christianity vs other religion's gods I meant study it, not see that it's spelled the same a draw a conclusion
  • u
    Realthinker
    !
    Having tried to address my comments directly to the editors and been prevented from doing so because the website says the direct access email is not activated, I am forced to make my comments more public than I would choose.
    It is my contention that Mary Noble's choice of a headline for her piece is designed to influence the readers before they get to the article. The headline reads as though two American Christian men are behind the Uganda law, i.e.. they have "ties" to the law, when in fact they have an opinion about the law with which most of us disagree. Such a practice is referred to as "yellow journalism".
    Furthermore, an opinion about a law that makes a practice illegal is not the same thing as encouraging the death penalty be applied to the law, which Ms. Noble's article infers.
    Describing these two individuals as "powerful" is a further distortion of the facts, giving them far more influence than they actually have. They do have a right to their opinion whether we agree with them or not.
    I believe Ms. Noble's article was intended to stir up hatred against the Christians and request that it be removed.
  • o
    woodtick57
    !
    @Realthinker you could always research christian groups influence in Uganda on your own. you know htey have influence on the laws here. why is it such a stretch to believe they have influence on the laws there?

    it isn't even a matter of belief, it is clearly shown in the facts of who is pushing this law ...
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