Gun Control Won't Prevent Mass Shootings, Says Criminologist

But that doesn't mean gun control is moot

Would stricter gun control have prevented the terrible crime witnessed at a Connecticut elementary school today? Not likely, suggests Professor of Criminology Gary Kleck of Florida State University.

Unlike more common, petty gun crimes, Kleck writes, mass shootings are typically planned long in advance of their being carried out, unlike the more "heat of the moment" homicides that don't make the national news. This makes them resistant to being prevented by gun laws when a willful, deliberative decision to break the law is precisely what's in the works.

"Gun control measures that merely delay gun acquisition, such as waiting periods, merely place minor obstacles in a gun buyer's way," observes Kleck. "The terrible reality is that premeditated violence, especially that carried out by killers willing to die by their own hands or those of the police, are among the hardest violent acts to prevent."

Does this mean that gun control measures are pointless? Hardly, says Kleck, who believes it perfectly reasonable to extend routine background checks with the goal of uncovering prior criminal activity that reveals poor impulse control: "This...could prevent casually motivated gun acquisition by high-risk persons who are less powerfully motivated than mass killers to get guns regardless of the obstacles."

Via Pacific Standard.

Does Kleck make a good point about the types of gun crimes committed and gun control?

[Cheenoguy]

Well we have almost double the per capita murder rate of Canada and almost triple that of Britain, Scotland, and Ireland.
http://m.guardiannews.com/news/datablog/2009/...

[bsking]

come on Chicago has more than that

[Keyjo]

Part of that is because we are simply more uncivilized!
Gun control in Canada is minimal and while they may have fewer guns, there are plenty of rugged hunter types. I'd also have to say that Canadians are more relaxed, less stressed. We are a product of the society we created.

[Sonny]

@Keyjo You are so right about that, Keyjo....Now, for some reason, most people don't want to admit that fact...But--in many ways we are indeed, far more "uncivilized" than people in other developed countries. And, we live under far more stress than many others do. And, finally, we seem to have a higher number of people who still have a kind of "frontier" mentality....Those are the one's who want to do away with things like social security, and healthcare for all.....That constant fight and struggle to move forward with progress and the pull backwards of the far right "frontier" types also contributes mightily to the day to day on-going struggle and stress of this nation.

[Keyjo]

@Keyjo
Working 12 hour days, 6 days per week doesn't help. I'm just sayin'!
Stress in a mental killer and I can think of few more stressful populations among our peers, that what we have here in the United States.

[Keyjo]

@Sonny
Yes! I personally have not had a vacation in 5 years. The only reason I had one then was that I became unemployed due to the company I worked with going bankrupt. I generally work between 50 and 60 hours per week, often ending my shift with little or NO profit.
I have to admit, I often feel like going off the deep end! They used to call it, "Going Postal!" I call it, "Going Cab Driver!" Thank God for ganja to mellow me out at the end of the day. American capitalism, ain't it a wonder to behold?

[tomincali]

may not prevent it yet could very well reduce the body count. we all see like with this last shooting these folks like soft targets that are helpless and least likely to show resistance.

someone shooting back could very well throw a wrench into their twisted plans.

[DARSB]

I'd like to think you're right about armed resistance, but I can't find an example of it happening that way. In the one case I recall of a security guard returning fire (New Life Church about five years ago) the shooter was wounded but not before making his kills. He was still able to take his own life.

[xsecfr]

Sort of like what happens between two countries fighting in the name of religion, Christians versus Muslims? I really don't see the problem, kill them before they're born, sitting at a desk or waiting until they're eighteen and signing them up to murder and/or die; with the exception of whom agenda gets met. What's happening has to be recognized as acceptable; America's legacy is based upon resolving issues with killing.

[Medicinebow]

@DARSB You can't find examples of armed resistance? Seriously? There's plenty of examples....even videos on youtube. Part of the issue is the media simply doesn't report on these types of stories. A little looking on the internet will yield thousands of examples.

[Concerned_Cit]

@DARSB - Unless someone is injured/killed, they are usually not reported. There are an average of over 1.5 million instances in the US alone each year where armed citizens avert or stop criminals. NRA magazines re-publishes some of them from newpapers every month, of course they cannot publish all 1.5 million of them since they'd go bankrupt doing so!

[DARSB]

@Medicinebow let me clarify - I haven't found an instance in which a mass shooter was stopped by return fire from a bystander. Have you? I really do want to know.

[Bobolinsky]

No comment.

[Bobolinsky]

Unrelated to the politicization of this tragedy...

Is anyone else watching this?

http://www.trutv.com/shows/killer-karaoke-sin...

[MarkJM]

Nothing wrong with requiring criminal and mental background checks as a condition of purchasing firearms. So long as the right to keep and bear arms is not infringed upon, then it's all good.

[Tralee]

Of course, I agree, but the problem is, they were not his guns, his Mother purchased them according to all I have heard, no mental or criminal background check would have made any difference. If he hadn't stolen her's, he just would have stolen someone elses guns.

[MarkJM]

@Tralee This is true as well, another detail all the gun control nuts should take note of. It just goes to show that firearms can be obtained by anyone at any given time. You and I agree here.

[mimi57]

@Tralee Until we fix the mental health system, we will continue to have these horrible crimes. If there is ever a
place to put tax dollars, it's into the mental health system. It is ignored so often, not only by friends and family,but
professionals as well. In the 1980's we began closing mental institutions... they need to build more, and we need
to pay more attention to the 'signs', and there are many. As a society, we are allowing very dangerous mentally
ill people to live among us without supervision, psychiatric care, or proper medications. Psychotics need to be
institutionalized... we are allowing them free access to guns, children and freedom, as if they are normal citizens.
Unfortunately, we are seeing more often just how 'ignoring' the dangerously mentally ill can be. We have government funding and much of it is wasted, spending tax money to keep people, especially children safe , is
a small price to pay for life. We need to prioritize and we need to pay attention to the signs, they're there. How
many more of these tragedies have to happen before someone does something about keeping schools, etc.
safe from maniacs...most mentally ill people aren't a danger, but for the ones that are...they are a real big danger.

[Denizen_Kate]

@mimi57 - I agree. Much more attention should be paid to clinical depression in teens and young adults, as well as those at that age where schizophrenia and bi-polar disorder first manifest themselves. This could have been something like that: a 20 year old as-yet undiagnosed schizophenic hearing those voices in his head for the first time. Hard to see something like that coming, but maybe more effort should go into developing tests for just this sort of thing, if that's even possible. :(

[MarkJM]

@Denizen_Kate I agree with you hands down on that Kate. There are still a lot of questions out there but if this 20 year old was in need of mental help, then he should have gotten it well ahead of time.

[Warrior_Judge]

Gun control will not help. Criminals will always have access to guns. The only ones who will be affected are the ones who try to buy them legally.

[ded]

Sure criminals will always have access to guns. But what about depressed and angry young men from middle class families? Most of the mass shootings we have in mind (e.g. Aurora, Virginia Tech and I bet you this one) were not committed by people with criminal records.

[Fishbone345]

@ded Exactly. The mass slayings over the years have mostly all been done by people that easily attained the weapons they used. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris bought them from someone that thought it was an ingenious idea to sell to minors.
Criminals that "will always have access to guns" are shooting people nightly in shootouts that no one gives a shit about because its not news until its big time. Note, more often that not, these shootouts are among criminals and not at others.

[Stagdad]

Concealed carry is the best way to prevent shootings like this.

[Keyjo]

Maybe, maybe not.
Scenarios vary vastly. I have a concealed permit, I carry. Hand guns are most effective at close range, within 20 feet. Handguns are mostly for personal protection. Dirty Harry and John Wayne tactics are for the movies. If you encounter a shooter with an assault rifle and/or dressed in body armor, you are at a disadvantage, to put it lightly. And if he is moving quickly through a crowd, you have to make sure you don't become part of the problem. Having a concealed handgun requires a cool head and common sense and the ability to think and react quickly. I do NOT believe that it's wise for every citizen to possess a carry permit or to be armed.

[ded]

@Keyjo You? Why on Earth do you carry a concealed gun? Has it ever helped you? I'm genuinely surprised.

[Keyjo]

@ded
I drive a cab at night.
If you mean by, "Has it ever helped you?", have I ever had occasion to display or draw it? No, and I sincerely hope I never do.
Why are you so surprised?

[Concerned_Cit]

Agree, or open carry as well. There should be an armed guard or principal at every school with a rifle on hand, so that a psycho like this can be stopped, even if they are wearing bullet resistant armor.

[vigilant]

@ded,
Why on earth do you have life insurance? Has it ever helped you (or anyone else)? Do you plan to use it? Do you want to use it? Of course not. You have it because it is a prudent precaution - that you hope never to use - much like a gun - except if you use the gun, you have a somewhat better chance at surviving, than if you use the life insurance. Plus, you can always sell the gun for more than you paid for it. So, a gun is MUCH better than your life insurance.

[Jake_Is_Angry]

How come when something like this happens we focus on gun control and the violence in the media Instead of focusing on finding and treating mental illnesses?

[Settlah]

ok, you talk about gun control, the guns this person had with him, are reported to have been purchased from a FFL, legally, and all 3 guns were registered, legally owned....

[Kellso]

Get rid of the assault guns!!! if this guy had walked in with a shot gun, sure he woudl have killed some but NOT 20. Stop the extended magazines stop the assault rifles and weapons. NO ONE needs more than three shots in a pump actionor bolt actionor even a semi auto rifle to kill any animal on this planet! Why woudl anyone want to have a mac 10? an ar15? an ak47? WHY? to spray bullets into humans!!!!!!! get rid of all those weapons. No one needs them for home defense!

[Settlah]

it was not assault guns, was simple hand guns, same thing anyone can buy at the local gun shop, its not the guns, its the people

[artjeb]

KELLSO do you know the defination of assault ? Any thing can be considered that. A pencil', a fist, a baseball bat.... assault is a action of threatining wilh a object.

[mtkopf]

@Settlah no shooter had a 223 caliber assault rifle 2 semi auto handguns and possibly one more gun. It would have been extremely difficult for him to fire over 100 rounds with handguns.
And btw it IS the guns.

[jessejaymes]

Has he of had a shotgun or two with rotary clips on them (similar to the shotgun featured in the movie Expendables) he could have killed a whole bunch more than he could have with handguns. He could have killed two or three little kids with one blast. Shotguns are not going to be banned. Your logic is wrong here. I own an AR-15 that is only shot at the range and I don't "spray" anything. And since it's obvious that you have shot an AR-15 let me inform you that even if you do spray you must take aim or your spray is more luck than skill. A shotgun is more very lucky. Deadly lucky. Just point the general direction and pull the trigger. Close in a shotgun is far more deadly than an AR-15.

[Settlah]

@mtkopf i have the same guns, my kids shoot with them, an AR-15 is a hobby gun, a fine firearm, when respected, semi auto handguns are not a big deal either, again, i have many and my 10 year old daughter, and 12 year old son use them, in all the proper, safe ways, your judgment is clouded my friend. the gun did not walk into the school and shoot people, someone had to carry it, and use it

[marine1]

I am more concerned about what is causing people to go off like this? 30/40 years ago you never heard of things like this. What in like is causing people to go to this extent. There has to be a reason why we are growing more nut jobs?

[martydotcom]

Read the more radical government conspiracy posts on today's other shooting related topics. This site is a tiny sample, but the number of paranoids about government plotting mass shootings, the government haveing mind control brain washing drugs make the most committed second amend. adherent in favor of mental background testing.
BTW the drug. talked about is readily available for seasickness

[mtkopf]

I said this on another thread; thirty forty years ago people were crazy, they just used their fists. At worst they pulled a knife or handgun.
Today, with an estimated 300 million guns owned in America, they are too readily available to criminals and wackos.
Also the advent of assault weapons, any weapon that is designed to target a high number of humans rapidly(Wikipedia), is what's making these massacres easier to do.
I fully support anyone's right to own a handgun or a hunting rifle. I see no reason for ANY American to own weapons designed to kill as many people as possible in a short period of time.
That's my view and its not gonna change.

[dances-weebles]

it's the shit that they're putting in the breakfast cereal now... given time, that stuff'll kill ya.

[Concerned_Cit]

How do many kids take out their frustrations these days? Video games. What do they do to withdraw from a bad homelife or problems? TV and video games. Not saying that violent video games are to blame, but kids who have poor parents not guiding them with such things can get distorted sense's of what is right and wrong, and distorted reality also.
I'd say there are many factors contributing to it, as well as increased coverage of these events for monetary and political gain/exploitation.

The only solution is to go armed, and ready for psychos. If there had been just one faculty member or guard at that school with a rifle, it wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

[Thunderchicken]

I call it stress. Given that the pace of life has been steadily increasing and keeping up puts people on edge. Most of these mass shootings occur in densely populated areas where the pace of life is fast. I can't remember hearing of a mass shooting in a smaller town or in a rural setting.

I'll also make the point that in more rural parts of the country, guns are more common in everyday life. I've walked into many a country store, diner or gas station where the proprietor has a gun on his hip and where many of the trucks in the parking lot have a gun rack with a rifle in plain sight.

[artjeb]

I know there are a lot of chicken people that want ALL guns put away.
let it happen & i will become a millionair.
My milling machine is willing to work making more
Why is it the gun & not the person ? I have never seen any gun walk away under it's own power.

[mtkopf]

I've never seen bullets fly out of a persons finger.

[Settlah]

another thing to think of, a man in china stabbed 22 kids today at a school, no gun, a knife.

[ded]

And how many of the kids died? Google it.

[Settlah]

@ded i didnt talk about how many died, i just commented on the crime

[ded]

@Settlah Yes, the point is that in the incident with a knife, zero kids died. In the incident with the handguns/assault rifle, all 18 of the kids died.

[Dan_Tien]

She has a good point. Even if all weapons that are currently on the table for gun control were banned, or even somehow deleted from existence, someone who was intent on a mass killing could load themselves down with revolvers like the Outlaw Josie Wales and gun down unsuspecting unarmed victims. I have been in countries that have armed guards in every store and public building. That would be an oppressive solution, but more pragmatic than trying to control shooters by denying them weapons that are produced by the millions.

[ded]

She doesn't have a good point. She has a tautological point at best. The majority of developed nations don't allow the sale of handguns. Obviously, if handguns are illegal, then there will always be some people who would do a mass-shooting, but don't, because they fail to make the right criminal connections. If you always know that you can get a gun just by going to the store, then perhaps you're more likely to start planning an attack.

[Dan_Tien]

@ded There are many developed nations that allow the sale of handguns, though licenses and regulations vary about who can buy them and why. There are too many guns in circulation to simply erase them by making them illegal, and there is that pesky 2nd Amendment to deal with. You cannot go to the store anywhere in the world and buy a vest packed with explosives, but that doesn't stop people from creating them and exploding them in public. The bomb that exploded in Oklahoma City was made from chemical fertilizer and diesel oil, shall we ban them to make sure it doesn't happen again?

[Fishbone345]

@Dan_Tien Chemical fertilizer and diesel oil aren't made with the specific purpose of blowing up a building. There will always be people that will find a way around things as you've demonstrated.
Guns? Name ONE other purpose a gun is made for besides killing something. Be it an animal, paper target or another human being, they are made to murder. Its not like you can buy them to shoot nails in construction. They shoot bullets, that are intended to pierce flesh with the intent of doing serious harm if not death. Period.

[Dan_Tien]

@Fishbone345 I mentioned the ingredients of the Oklahoma City bomb in order to express the notion that common things that are not associated with death dealing can be turned into weapons. Steel and brass are not made with the sole purpose of making guns either. Human intent is what makes weapons out of them. Name ONE other thing that a gun is good for other than killing things? How about preventing things from getting killed? There are police officers who carry handguns every day but retire from service without killing anyone or anything. Weapons of all types are made for the purpose of killing and defending, and they are probably the most ancient of human inventions. Stating the obvious does not change human nature.

[Fishbone345]

@Dan_Tien " Name ONE other thing that a gun is good for other than killing things?"
That is NOT what I asked. Don't change what I typed so you can make some point about something I didn't talk about. What I typed and you took leniency with was, "Name ONE other purpose a gun is made for besides killing something."
Purpose, not good for. Guns are made for the purpose of killing. That isn't up for argument.

[jessejaymes]

The man is dead on the money. You can buy anything that is illegal in this country. In Los Angeles the police arrested a man who was trying to sell a baby elephant stalled in a storage shed. No zoo or facility in the USA was missing a baby elephant. Where in the hell did this man get that elephant and how did he get in the country? No matter what laws you pass or how restrictive you make guns, a determined psychopath will kill. Just like the man says.

[KyleMFb]

Oh I guess it's pointless to try so I guess lets just start giving school kids guns so they can go to school and b safe

[Concerned_Cit]

Or allowing the faculty to be armed would be a more prudent and logical way to stop incidences such as this more quickly. (yes I understood your comment was a joke.)

[ded]

The fact is (a) if guns are illegal, then there will be some would-be mass shooters who never make the requisite criminal connections, (b) empirically, countries where hand guns are illegal have lower gun crime, (c) there is no compelling reason for members of the public to own handguns. It's just to satisfy their rescue fantasies.

[Dan_Tien]

Your "facts" are mostly suppositions. Countries where hand guns are illegal do have lower gun crimes, but higher numbers of assaults with blunt weapons and blades. The advantage swings back in the favor of big, strong sociopaths.

[CommonCents]

It's not gun control it's mental illness help, the gun is not the problem it's the person.

[ded]

You do know what "meaningless cliche" means don't you? If the person doesn't have the gun, then they are less dangerous to others.

[CommonCents]

@ded Yes but it would have never gotten to that point if people were more responsible with their guns, he was mentally ill and knew exactly where his mothers guns were, and in these situations a gun is a tool of empowerment.

[Denizen_Kate]

@ded - It is neither meaningless nor cliche to promote the idea that we should spend more time, attention, and money on mental health, especially issues such as clinical depression in teens and young adults. Those are also the years during which disorders such as schizophrenia and bi-polar disorder may first manifest. This 20 year old shooter today could have been just such a case.

[ded]

@Denizen_Kate Agreed, but it it this that is the meaningless cliche:

"the gun is not the problem it's the person."

[Denizen_Kate]

@ded - cliche yes, meaningless no.

[Republican5001]

Great point. Guns are the tool. I didn't see anyone outlawing planes after 9/11 and that was far worse.

[ded]

Yes, and without the tool, the person is less dangerous. Your point?

[Dan_Tien]

@ded The point is that someone like me who was trained a hundred different ways to kill a man with his bare hands is no less dangerous without access to a gun, but you are much less capable of defending yourself against me.

[Republican5001]

@ded or a guy like who isn't trained a hundred different ways to kill a man would still be well motivated to kill you with my bare hands if that is all I had and was aimed on doing it. Tools just make it easier for you to get the job done. You don't throw away your hammer because you smash your thumb. The criminologist made the same arguement in the article. I agreed and offered my opinion.

Your point is?

[vigilant]

@ded,
So, you would seize all hammers from all construction workers, homeowners, and handymen, simply because they are used to viciously kill people? You must be a Democrat.

[ded]

@Dan_Tien @Republican5001 @vigilant

You're right that I *could* one day get into a situation where someone means to do me harm and I could save myself with a gun. But if they're just trying to rob me, it's better to let that happen, than to risk an armed confrontation. And if they're trying to kill me, well, that's really not very likely is it.

The difference seems to be that you guys want a *guarantee* that you'll always be able to protect yourselves. I am being a pragmatist and balancing the improbable situation of me having to save myself with a gun against the cost of guns being legal for every nutcase to buy. I see where you're coming from, but I think humans have concluded that running societies requires compromise and subtlety, and should not be done by laying out dogmatic positions which you won't budge on such as "I must always be able to shoot an attacker however unlikely it is for me to have to do it".