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MEN AT WORK

Could More Men on the Scene Have Stopped Newtown Massacre?

A National Review Online columnist says yes, setting off an online firestorm

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by Lisa Fine

Staff Writer t

Since last week's elementary school massacre in Newtown, Conn., the nation has plunged into soul-searching about what could have stopped it.

The answer was clear to one National Review Online writer: More men.

"In general, a feminized setting is a setting in which helpless passivity is the norm," Charlotte Allen wrote. "Male aggression can be a good thing, as in protecting the weak - but it has been forced out of the culture of elementary schools and the education schools that train their personnel. Think of what Sandy Hook might have been like if a couple of male teachers who had played high-school football, or even some of the huskier 12-year-old boys, had converged on Lanza."

Allen's column has set off a firestorm of criticism on the internet, including a strongly worded column from National Review Online's own founding editor, Jonah Goldberg.

"Her effort to blame this tragedy, at least partly, on the fact that it was a 'feminized' setting strikes me as somewhat perverse," wrote Goldberg, who is now National Review Online's editor-at-large. "Plenty of men have been killed in other mass slaughters, some of them in the process of trying to tackle the shooter."

Goldberg notes that the Sandy Hook elementary school principal, Dawn Hochsprung, who is being widely hailed as a hero, was killed lunging at the shooter to try to stop him.

Via National Review Online
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Does Charlotte Allen's assertion offend you?

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Comments (view in Forum)

  • martydotcom
    !
    The Conservative"s leading publication The Nation Review certainly knows how to offend women. I'm sure the women of America love being told they are perceived to be low performing passive twits at times of stress by the conservatives. This insensitive blithering idiot of an author apparently failed to read of the multiple heroic life saving and life sacrificing acts that were committed by women during this massacre.
    Some great GOP vote getting strategy and idea have emerged from on this site after the massacre.
    Attract Latino voters by joining the anti gun lobby.
    Offend women voters by calling them passive and helpless in a crisis.
    What next Conservatives??? A middle class tax hike to keep your donors happy?. take SS away? Cut Medicare and Medicaid? Defund "Meal on Wheels" Stave the poor? Any other attack on those who are not Corporations, we all know "corporations are people."
    What a winning combo for the next election!
  • DaddySon
    !
    I think it's offensive as well as a stupid assertion. Same as when people make the claim that this wouldn't have happened if we hadn't taken God out of our schools. Though we no longer FORCE religion on children in public schools we certainly haven't banned it considering the number of religious clubs in public schools that get equal treatment like any other extra curricular activity.

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  • Quantummist
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    Men are not bullet proof.... But Men, as in non feminized, not afraid of spiders Men ... Might place themselves in the line of fire and put fear into the attacker that Men may drop his Game Play score before he gets to the next Level.... Because that is what this last kid and others were doing... They were playing a 3d video game... they had practiced the Game over and over... In one case a young kid had never fired a real gun in his life.... He stole a gun and shot 8 of his school mates..... He fired 8 rounds in 45 seconds ... He hit 8 targets.... All head shots or upper torso.... Ask any cop what the average number of shots to hits when firing at a person by a well trained police officer... It is about 2 hits in 10 rounds...... How did a kid that had never fired a real gun do this... He Practiced for years playing games like Delta Force, Battlefield, US Combat, Americas Soldier ect....... When he walked into that school his targets were just Game targets .... This last Idiot had spent years becoming accustomed to dead bodies bleeding on the screen in front of them... He had become accustomed to dressing in combat gear and clearing a room full of people by quick shooting moving targets....

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    Heavy-Fed
    !
    @Quantummist EXACTLY right!! Our kids train most of their lives on first person shooters games for just such a thing!!! Then we get all surprised when one of them goes out and does what they have been trained to do??? Get a clue people!!! Killing someone in a video game is the same as killing someone in real life to certain parts of your brain!! We have our kids killing things over and over and over again while their brains are still developing!!!
  • Knightkore
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    @woodtick57 There are studies bearing what he says out...it is really interesting...even the military knows this and has taken to using video games/simulators to train the troops to shoot better...

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  • PNWest
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    You didn't read it too carefully then. Goldberg's ranting were from the right. Granted he only bashed Obama a little bit calling him grotesque but still there was no man-hate or commie rantings that I could see.
  • u
    RobertJHarsh
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    @PNWest Goldberg hit me a bit of self-centered D-bag. He was "offended" at the assumption men should take care of problems? That is essentially what he said.
  • u
    RobertJHarsh
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    @PNWest Perhaps...but the guy is definitely acting like "well women can do kill people too". Yes they can but two adult women fought Lanza, both were killed but a large man very well might have stopped him. Of course that's a "what-if". But I am curious if this Goldberg guy would stop an attacker. He's playing the equality a bit too much.

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  • Thegrif
    !
    Offend? Not in the least. Some men probably would have had to die, but one of us could have got him, and ripped his sick little head off.
    Still though without a gun to defend with, it would have been a real roll of the dice as to who got shot.
  • Thegrif
    !
    @Thunderchicken that is a consideration and calculated risk in my plan, however I am to damn dumb not to go for it. Been in a situation or 2 before, scared, but totally amped up to eliminate the threat too. I tell my wife and sons, fear us a hell of a motivator.

    F. E. A. R= False Evidence Appearing Real
  • Thunderchicken
    !
    @Thegrif

    Yeah me to. In one situation, afterward I was glad I resisted the impulse to act. It would have made things worse. It's funny the things that go through you mind in times of severe stress.
  • mimi57
    !
    No, it doesn't offend me. Those women put their lives on the line for those children
    I have no doubt, and that is far above admirable, they were courageous angels.
    That said, men are usually bigger and stronger than women, and they may have
    been able to do more to take him down, he wasn't very big...there are times when
    I will trust a man to protect me much better than another woman. Maybe more males at the scene could have offered more protection. However, those women
    were heroes and gave all they could, their lives..we will never know for sure. Sad.

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    woodtick57
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    All men are? I've known some pretty huge cowards in my time that were male. I guess if they pass the hero test you have invented then they should work there.
  • Thunderchicken
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    I urge everyone to read the whole article. Allen makes a good point.

    "Unfortunately, the idea of being an “adult” and a “man” once one has reached physical maturity seems to have faded out of our coddling culture."
  • PoliticalSpice
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    Challote (the writer of the story) is just trying to get the attention of a big, strong, macho guy so she enjoy some of his...aggression. She'd do better to hang around a sports bar.
  • Dan_Tien
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    The theater in Colorado was filled with men when the mass shooting happened there. Some of the men shielded the women they were with and died protecting them, but they did not stop the shooter. Even a man who is expertly trained in unarmed combat is at an extreme disadvantage against another man who is firing a semi-automatic rifle. He would need a whole lot of luck to stop him.
  • mimi57
    !
    But that was a dark theater and many thought he was a 'prop', in other words an
    'actor' to go down the aisles to scare people, kind of like interaction in a Play, etc.
    Also, he came through the Exit, I think.. so he was facing the audience, and I don't
    know if at anytime his back was turned away from them. Not sure, as I wasn't there. But in broad daylight,he came through the doors, shot through, granted, but
    at some point he would have had his back open, if nothing else maybe to re-load.
    I don't know, but ,I do agree that it may have been possible for him to be taken down at some point. The episode lasted for over twenty minutes.
  • Dan_Tien
    !
    @mimi57 My personal decision would be to go for them, because I never liked the idea of being shot in the back and there is no telling what a determined man can do. Have you ever heard the story about why General MacArthur convinced the Army to start carrying .45 automatics instead of .38 caliber sidearms?
  • Dan_Tien
    !
    @mimi57 I could not easily find a link to the story on the internet, so I will tell you what I heard from memory. Sorry if some of the details are off:

    Douglas MacArthur served in the Philippines as a young officer. At the time, there was a violent rebellion by the native Moros who wanted to form their own Islamic country on the southern island of Mindanao (they still do, by the way). One day one of them rushed at an officer near MacArthur with a machete. The officer drew his .38 revolver and emptied all six shots into the man, but he lived long enough to kill the officer with his machete. After that, MacArthur adopted the .45 caliber Colt Model 1911 for its additional stopping power.

  • View all 7 replies >

  • UnCommonBoston
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    This is typical, someone who doesn't have all the facts, makes a wild assumption and uses the media to sell it. I don't know the facts, but this seems crazy. I am sure there are other men who feel this way, unless they read the rebuttles, this strengthens their ideas. Irresponsible journalism motivates people to act nonproductivly and often irresponsibly,
  • Jeff_Woehrle
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    ARMED men...or women, for that matter. Time to stop having people be sitting ducks in 'gun-free zones.' Criminals clearly don't care about signs telling them that guns are not allowed.
  • Bobolinsky
    !
    Charlotte is making a mistake that is most prevalent on the Left. She is confusing gender with traits that have been traditionally defined as masculine with males.

    Good, bad, right, or wrong, no matter how many examples to the contrary, traits like strength, bravery, leadership, and aggression, have been for all of history up until today as "masculine" traits. Conversely... Good, bad, right, or wrong, no matter how many examples to the contrary, traits like passivity, cooperation, and sensuality are "feminine traits.

    I submit that there are evolutionary reasons for this "division of traits" that persists in our population still today, but that's not the point I wanted to make.

    The point I wanted to make was that the Left huffs and puffs at the "pay gap" and the fact that men tend towards some fields and women to others.

    It's been over 40 years since the high tide of feminism. Feminists got there message into the schools. The forty-somethings today, both men and women, learned the "gender equality" message from the start, little girls learned early on that they could do anything they want to do if they are willing to work for it. Girls take shop and boys take home-ec... if the school still has either.

    The days when a bright 16 year-old girl who's graduating early and is the valedictorian of her class is told by her guidance counselor that she can be a teacher when she tells him that she likes math and science are long, long gone.

    Two generations. In two generations we have gone from women being shut out from most professions to arguing for extra rights in the workplace, correction of an easily explainable "pay gap", and disparities between which fields and professions that men and women freely choose to pursue.
  • ir0nw0lfe
    !
    okay so she didn't word it right and at the risk of not being politically correct there is some truth to the idea that men assistant other for potential threats . the idea the shooter may have to counter several adult males in the setting may have helped Peter the shooter. so would armed security guards but that solution simply too expensive for most schools .
  • DARSB
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    "In general, a feminized setting is a setting in which helpless passivity is the norm" - Clearly, Charlotte did not attend Catholic grade schools. ;)
  • jessejaymes
    !
    Question: Would you rather have an Israeli women with an UZI try to take out the shooter or a guy in a g-string and fishnets prancing the street in a gay pride parade?

    Sounds absurd huh? Now what it the Israeli woman was in first day of boot camp and her "Uzi" was nothing but a plugged barrel dummy gun she would carry for familiarity and the guy in the gay pride parade was a Navy Seal with 10 missions under his belt?

    In a Photoshopped world nothing is at it seems. To make statements like is being made about a feminized world is absolutely ignorant.
  • jessejaymes
    !
    @mimi57 You obviously have never seen a gay pride parade. Oh an Mimi? Most women aren't posing for a photo with an Uzi either.
  • mimi57
    !
    @jessejaymes Cancel that, I forgot you live in Cal., I saw a Folsom Street Fair/ Parade, on the net... Crazy !
    I'm from the mid-west, born and bred..have lived here my entire life. I have a crazy uncle that lives in San Raphael
    though. I've been to LA. twice and San Diego, never made it to San Fran though...that's okay, I'll pass.(:
  • jessejaymes
    !
    @mimi57 Mimi you do amaze me. In a funny sort of way. San Francisco is one of the great cities of the world. It sits on a hillside and is actually a bunch of tiny towns all crowded together called San Francisco. There is the wharf district that caters to tourists. The south of Mission where yuppie tech millionaires reclaimed a ghetto and today is multi million dollar condos to rival those in New York City. Then there is Nob Hill (you may have seen the world's most twisty street in movies or photos) and various other areas where the prices start at 10 million and up. Including the legendary SF Victorian houses. China town is North America's largest and a sight to see. Vibrant, alive, colorful. The old hippie district Haight-Asbury is now a art district and bring a bucket of cash. Then there is North Beach. The famous strip club district that is not much today but a few names from the past still blink in neon.

    The gay district is the Castro District and you could spend a week in SF without ever knowing it was there or venturing into it. Mimi we really have to get you up to speed here. There is an exciting world out there and you know what? I've been to SF maybe 30 times in my life and not once have I ever been to the Castro district nor have I ever been harassed by a gay.
  • mimi57
    !
    @jessejaymes I know that...I know about the houses and Lombard St., etc. I have been to 45 states and Russia
    and Canada.. I want to go to Italy, but not sure if I'll ever get there, my ancestors are from there. I've been to Venice Beach, Daytona Beach, Virginia Beach, Myrtle Beach, San Padre Island, etc. I just don't know if I
    want to have to deal w/ a whole bunch of Liberals...and they are in San Francisco. Now, I've made the Libs mad.
    (:

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  • u
    seedtick
    !
    It doesn't matter what the gender is, it's the knowledge about how best to deal with the situation. These ladies were absolutely well trained in how to protect the kids, but not all of them actually had training about taking on a gunman when forced to do so. I think, if I understand correctly, instinct told some of them to attack him as a last resort. But, none of us actually know the last minute situation they were in. I call it extreme bravery to protect the kids.
  • o
    Sharpshooter
    !
    Not Offensive, nor POLITICALLY CORRECT which is the actual issue.

    The Assertion isn't totally correct either.... I know several women who have faced REAL fire and a commensurate number of men who crumbled in the same situation so it's not correctly about sex.

    It is however a somewhat valid point that the masculine mindset of stand up and fight MAY be part of the solution to these situations. Females are generally more tolerant and passive in the face of aggression. Males USED TO learn to fight as they grew up and generally put up with a lot less before their "fight" switch is tripped.

    I think the author's poorly presented point as also from the wrong direction.... As we "sissify" the world with zero tolerance for fighting and sensitivity training we're losing something very important.

    MEN are the defenders in the human race, much as the sissifiers want to change it, that's the way it is. There are occasional female warriors but they are the exception.

    The Wackos are behaving like predators and the possibility exists that they select target rich environments much like lions choose the weaker members of a herd as prey.

    It's a bad presentation of an interesting question we SHOULD BE asking rather than appointing a clown to head a kangaroo panel to invent more useless laws.
  • OzarkMtnDad
    !
    People, the problem was not what was at the school. The problem was what came to the school, a demented young man bent on doing evil. The same for what happened in the San Ysidro, California McDonald's & the Springfield, Oregon high school & Columbine High School & The movie theater in Aroura, Colorado & the shopping mall in the Northwest & the family restaurant in Kileen, Texas & the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. I mean if you think having men being there would have made the difference, what about armed men? Then ask yourself why that theory didn't work at the Marine Barracks in Beruit?
  • Vance1
    !
    YEP!! Liberals have turned America into the sissy society.
    Everyone wins, If little Jimmy does good, He gets a trophy, But little Bobby and little Henry, didnt do so well, But also get a trophy, Because in a liberal welfare non self reliant society, No one is a loser.
    These todays young people have gotten a major dose of Liberal indoctrination.
    Obama gave guns to Mexican drug cartels who kill Americans and rape and mame and kill their own people, and thats just fine. But he intends to take guns away from legal American citizens. Its called Liberal hypocrissy, Hillary got 4 Americans killed in Libya and lied about it, and Liberals ran out in droves and voted for these corrupted democrats. That is the fundemantal change they promissed in 2008.
    Its here now!!!!!!
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