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GUNS

Do Armed Civilians Stop Mass Shooters?

Tales of vigilante law enforcement

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by Mary Noble

Senior Editor t

Image: campusledger.com

Wishing for an armed teacher to confront Adam Lanza has been a common reaction to the Sandy Hook massacre. It was first mooted by Rep. Louie Gohmert, and has been taken up by lawmakers in Tennessee.

So it's worth asking whether their suggestion has worked in the past. When armed civilians confront gunmen, who usually gets the better of it?

Studies don't show a clear trend, according to a report from Slate. Relatively few shootings are ended by armed civilians, and of those that are, the intervention most commonly involves retired or off-duty police officers. Some examples, also from Slate:

At a 1998 shooting at a middle-school dance...which left one teacher dead and three other people wounded, restaurant owner James Strand took out a shotgun and chased down the teen shooter before persuading him to give up his weapon.

In a 2006 school shooting, London Ivey, a school resource officer; and Russ LeBlanc, a former state trooper and driver's ed teacher, confronted a Columbine-obsessed attacker in North Carolina who was firing at cars outside the school and had killed his father that day. Armed with his pistol, Ivey ordered the student to drop his weapons, and LeBlanc (who was unarmed) put him in handcuffs.

A counter-example: During the Gabby Giffords shooting, at least one armed civilian nearly shot the wrong man.

Via Slate.
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Do you think we'd see fewer mass shooting deaths if more civilians were armed?

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Comments (view in Forum)

  • Fishbone345
    !
    Don't comment on the pictures brother. We aren't allowed to. They can host them, we have to behave though.
    By the way, like the new festive pic. Kudos. And Happy Holidays to you my friend.
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    WMCOL
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    Logic dictates that reducing the number of guns would increase the likelihood of more defenseless mass shootings.
  • OpEn_MiNdEd
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    @PNWest Yes, but look at my post again - I'm talking about lowering the likelihood of more mass shootings not stopping all of them...
  • View all 77 replies >
  • DARSB
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    How accurate would the typical civilian's aim be? Even veteran police officers miss their targets. The Diallo shooting in New York City, for instance, found four plain clothes officers "fired a combined total of 41 shots, 19 of which struck Diallo."
  • Heavy-Fed
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    Did you hear about the little kid that took a gun to school and shot his classmates? Unloaded the gun in under 45 seconds and killed 8 or 9 kids... all head and torso shots. That's video game training for you.
  • PNWest
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    @Heavy-Fed I bet you wouldn't have heard about it at all if the gun had been kept out of his crazy little hands.
  • PoliticalSpice
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    Nypd almost never miss an unarmed target. The number of missesdon't matter, Diallo is dead, clifford glover is dead, bell is dead. Talk about unarmed civplians needing guns to protct themselves, nypd are certianly among those they need protect themselves from. Same goes for oakland and lapd...
  • View all 18 replies >
  • Heavy-Fed
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    @PNWest You can't blame the gun... you can blame the parents for allowing access to a gun... for allowing video games that teach children how to kill and desensitize them to it... but you can't blame the gun.
  • PNWest
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    @Heavy-Fed I do blame the parent. And I blame society for allow such easy access to guns. The gun itself is nothing but a hunk of metal. Sort of like a car. But a car needs to be registered and you need a license to operate it and it has useful purposes other than killing people or animals.
  • dances-weebles
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    only if (s)he lives long enough to find his gun and use it. the average armed civilian is terrified of hurting another human being when it comes right down to it.
  • kathyparsell
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    I agree, it often takes at least that long for police to respond in my community. Twice that long for our volunteer fire/rescue. While I imagine a school shooting would take presidence over everything else, they still have to arrive.

    Twice in the last several years an armed resource office has stopped a gunman in local schools long before police were even notified. The college of pharmacy in Tazwell and a high school in Kingsport. It seems that some people on this site assume that everyone in this country lives ,in a city or suburban area.
  • View all 39 replies >
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    bambi33
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    ... unless it's YOUR bullet striking the violent criminal who was about to rape and kill your family - until YOU stopped him cold.
  • u
    KyleMFb
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    @bambi33 unfortunately most of the time stray bullets hit inoccent people well trained cops do it all the time so I'm more than willing to bet a army reject white trash hillbilly and his local useless milita would do more harm than good
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    bambi33
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    @KyleMFb,
    Actually, the "hard truth" is that We The People have forbade the government from even so much as infringing upon our right to bear arms. Your personal aversion to the rule-of-law is irrelevant. Deal with it.
  • View all 6 replies >
  • jmann88
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    A armed civilian can stop mass killings. How about the western days when everyone was packing heat. How many crimes/mass killings were committed? Probably not a 3rd of the crime that we have now.
  • PoliticalSpice
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    @jmann88 hard to get accurate information on that, but there are a few books about the true stories of bla, bla, bla. My immpreesion is that wild though it may gave been, there weren't really half as much shooting going on as at tge movies...
  • PoliticalSpice
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    @jmann88 but i'll grant you not a third of the amount of crime we have now. Laudanum, an opiate: legal, marijuana: legal, prostitution: legal, so many things today classafied as crimes were not crimes then, so of course, the crime rate was far lower...
  • View all 27 replies >
  • Heavy-Fed
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    @PoliticalSpice That's the solution!!! 24 hour Secret Service protection for EVERYONE!!!
    That will also solve our unemployment problem!!
  • SavageMazx
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    While the sentiment is nice, most Americans have lost the intestinal fortitude to put their lives on the line to help their fellow man, they have been trained to sit by and wait for the police.
  • Drake_Burrwood
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    In the US Volunteer fire fighters are often over trained. As they pay for their own training and ignore the fact that.. "no we don't need another driver for the truck".
    --Police and Security often never need to draw there gun at work, and qualify twice a year.
    --While volunteer shooters often are over trained because firearms are their sport or martial art. This includes many police whose private training passes that required for the same reason.
  • Your_Name_Here
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    It can work but it's a gamble. Remember the bad guy is in killing mode while the armed civilian has to react. I don't care for the term 'armed civilian' because I am a civilian with more real life firearm experience than most law enforcement or military. The nature of the term denotes someone who is inexperienced.
  • u
    Annonn
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    "Civilian" should not denote "a person who does not know how to use a firearm," as it is a right of every American to train to defend himself to any level he wishes.
  • o
    Big-R
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    Can we please stop the "Armed teachers" debate already. There is not one school district in the country that would take on the liability of armed teachers to stop active shooters. First you have the law suit stand point, I can see the headline now, armed teacher accidentally shoots and kills student! Or student killed by teachers unattended gun. On and On and On, all day.

    Then you have the fact that the armed teacher will inevitably have to testify on the stand for a shooting. They are not going to want the liability, and very real possibility of a murder conviction themselves. A School Resource Officer is the only answer! An SRO would have the training, and ability, to not only stop the active shooter SAFELY, but be able to justify the shoot in court. I have been through the legal process for use of force, the job of the other side is to completely destroy you, and your credibility.

    Who would you rather have not only protecting your children, but testifying on the stand, a teacher who has gone through a CCW class, and some ranged time. Or a State licensed professional SRO, who has years of professional advanced training with firearms, the certificates to prove it, and the ability to justify the shoot on the stand.

    This ridiculous guns in school's debate needs to get serious. Both sides are getting as nutty as a squirrel turd here. Stop and think for once before you gut check the issue people, its not as difficult as what either side is making it out to be.
  • Fishbone345
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    And armed officer in schools!! Oh, but the money! Imagine how much it would cost!!
    2012 expenditures:
    War on Drugs:$39 Billion
    Foreign Aid:$49 Billion
    War in Afghanistan:$111 Billion
    Yah, we're spending money better elsewhere right?
  • o
    Big-R
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    @Fishbone345 Exactly my point! As I have said in previous posts, the funds are there already. Not only in school budgets, but in other worthless programs. How many schools do you know of that have multiple "Teachers" that do nothing more than coach football, baseball, or whatever other sport that benefits 1% of the school population? We need to start using this forum to get real ideas going, not just bitch at one another like a bunch of worthless congress members.
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    Big-R
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    @Fishbone345 By the way your foreign aid figure alone would cover the estimates out there for an SRO at every school.
  • Fishbone345
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    @Big-R It would also help the jobs percentage come up as well as opportunity for trained officers presented itself. But, yah, lets keep stealing money from citizens and throwing it away.
  • o
    Big-R
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    @Fishbone345 You are right again, it would add 100,000 new high skilled jobs. You definitely sound like someone who has more than just a hat rack on their shoulders.
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    racemonkey
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    The common theme with mass shootings in the last few years is that they all seem to take place in what are know by everyone to be gun free zones. I don't believe everyone should be required to carry a gun or receive training on how to use one but those who choose to and can pass the requirements put down by their state should be allowed. Crime is low in Israel where the military walk around with weapons in public and most civilians have received training with weapons at some time. It is also low in Sweden where most of the population are required to keep a pistol and semi automatic weapon as well as 500 rounds of ammunition at home as part of their national defense duties. The majority of people against guns in America do not own guns and have not had an opportunity to know any responsible gun owners. Their total exposure comes from Hollywood and the media which are practically the same thing. The amount of misreporting about guns by the msm is an embarrassment. It's sad they don't put any more effort into their research.
  • u
    norezen
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    Unless that punk is 280 pounds "harmlessly" attacking a 100 pound person. A pound of steel gives that 100 pound person the possibility of protecting themselves. Otherwise, its off the to emergency room, if the harmless punk doesn't kill them, rape kits, recounting and reliving the trauma, and living with the distrust of people for the rest of their lives.
    Or they could have had a handgun and felt some minor guilt about injuring or killing their attacker but at least felt some consolation that they were defending themselves.
  • o
    Sharpshooter
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    The actions of the shooters in these situations demonstrate them to be cowards... they sneak into places the KNOW will be target rich environments with little chance of resistance.

    It's as easy to sit in front of a keyboard talking tough and pretending to be an expert as it is to sit in front of a video game killing hundreds of virtual enemy combatants.

    Reports of these shootings generally indicate someone who is scared or at least nervous. The first crack of a bullet whizzing by your head is more than a bit disconcerting and even a miss may slow the shooter down a bit.

    We're ready to again try restricting some guns, an effort that has consistently failed but resist putting someone with a gun in schools to "harden" the target and give the victims a fighting chance. Why is that? Is the Hoplophobia so strong that eliminating guns is more important than stopping these CRIMES?

    A trained shooter has a good chance of stopping an incident like these, much better than if the school is a building filled with defenseless targets... why wouldn't we try?
  • Thegrif
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    Arm every person in America and criminals will still be criminals, they will still attempt mass shooting, lets all be clear on that.
    Sick-o's will still do sick things. Our point in arming people is not because we live in Soft-Kitty Land and think all violent crime will end. But, I tell you this much, if having one armed person at the school could have meant that one single dead child could still be alive, would still hug his mom and dad, or could still be a big brother or sister, then I am in total support,and if that was your child about to get blown to pieces, I promise you would thank whoever put the bad guy in the cross+hairs and dropped him, and spared your childs life.
    I am sorry if how I said this seems cold or aggressive. I do not mean to offend anyone, but I dealt with these animals for years, I know the law, and I know bad guys could care less if you ban anything, they will still have AR-15's the law does not apply to criminals. Do you think, banning a gun means this will not happen again? Of course it is going to happen again.
    I tell you this though, other than arming teachers in schools. I am all for paying more taxes if we hire more Deputy''s and make sure to put 2 officers on every school campus as their duty station.
  • Thegrif
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    @woodtick57 was over exaggerating on purpose as to say, nothing will stop bad people from doing bad things, and it will not stop by outlawing guns or ammo. Any idiot can learn to build a damn bomb on the net.
    A passive mentality will do nothing.
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    bambi33
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    @woodtick57,
    All the research concludes that the more private citizens carry guns, the less violent crime is perpetrated. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense.
    References:
    "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of self-Defense with a Gun" by Dr. Gary Kleck, Ph. D – Criminologist
    "The impact of gun control and gun ownership levels on violence rates." Journal of Quantitative Criminology 9(3):249-287 " by Dr. Gary Kleck, Ph. D – Criminologist
    “Why do people support gun control?” Journal of Criminal Justice 37(5) " by Dr. Gary Kleck, Ph. D – Criminologist
  • u
    tomincali
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    i think the mall shooting showed that. dig a little and see why the gunman stopped and chose to end his life. its out there thing is msm hates to air all things if it goes against their agenda this is more proof.
  • o
    bambi33
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    • On Oct. 1, 1997, Luke Woodham, 16, part of a satanic cult, stabbed and bludgeoned his mother before driving her car to Pearl High School in Pearl, Miss., where he shot dead two students and wounded seven others with a rifle he made no attempt to conceal. He then got back into his mother’s car and planned to go to Pearl Junior High School to kill some more. But assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieved a .45-caliber pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham.
    • On Jan. 16, 2002, Peter Odighizuwa, 43, of Nigeria, went to the Appalachian School of Law campus in Virginia with a handgun and killed three and wounded three others. At the sound of gunfire, two other students – both police officers – retrieved guns from their cars. Meanwhile, another police officer and former Marine jumped Odighizuwa and disarmed him by the time the other officers got to the scene.
    • On Aug. 23, 1995, a band of crack cocaine addicts entered a store in Muskegon, Mich., with a plan to kill everyone and steal enough cash and jewelry to feed their habit. One member of the gang shot store owner Clare Cooper in the back four times. He still managed to grab his shotgun and fire on the gang as they fled. They were all apprehended.
    • On Dec. 9, 2007, a 24-year-old gunman named Matthew Murray launched an attack on the congregants of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs that left two victims dead. A former police officer, Jeanne Assam, a member of the security team for the church, shot Murray 10 times, killing him, as he was shooting at her. Murray had killed four others at a church 70 miles away earlier in the day.
    • On July 24, 2012, Richard Gable Stevens rented a rifle at a shooting range in Santa Clara, Calif., and herded three employees out the door, saying he intended to kill them. One of the employees, however, was carrying a .45-caliber handgun and shot the assailant.
    • On Dec. 17, 1991, two men armed with stolen pistols herded 20 customers and employees of a Shoney’s restaurant in Anniston, Ala., into a walk-in refrigerator and locked it so they could rob the establishment. However, one customer, armed with a .45-caliber handgun had hidden under a table. He shot one of the gunmen dead. The other robber, who was holding the manager of the restaurant at gunpoint, began firing at the customer. But he was wounded critically by return fire, ending the incident.
    • On July 13, 2009, an armed man entered the Golden Food Market in south Richmond, shooting and wounding a clerk while firing at store patrons. He was shot by another customer who had a concealed-carry permit, likely saving the lives of eight other people in the store.
    • On July 29, 2012, Charles Conner shot and killed two people and their dogs at the Peach Tree RV park in Early, Texas. Vic Stacy got a call from one of the neighbors, got his .357 magnum and shot Conner in the leg. Police arrived before any further killings could take place.
    And there are Millions of other similar stories - most of which go untold.
  • hankf68
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    @bambi33 ...there are not millions of untold stories, come on now, these are far and in between stories and most of us know it...
  • bsking
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    @hankf68 most of you know nothing.. most of you only know what the idiot talking heads on TV tell you to know
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