Far Left and Far Right Both Want U.S. To Go Over Fiscal Cliff

Both say it's worth risking recession

Fiscal cliff politics is making for some strange bedfellows. The conservative Wall Street Journal editorial page and liberal icon Howard Dean both think taxes should be hiked and spending cuts should proceed Jan. 1, 2013 - though they reach the same conclusion for different reasons.

Dean, former VT governor, DNC chair and 2004 presidential candidate, recently told CNBC the only way to solve America's debt crisis and bring certainty to Wall Street and the business community is by going over the fiscal cliff.

Dean said higher taxes on everyone - not just the wealthy - are necessary and that the benefit of tax increases and spending cuts might be worth sending the country back into recession.

For the WSJ editorial board crew, "a bad budget deal is worse than no deal at all." According to this theory voters would side with congressional Republicans if the US went over the fiscal cliff.

"Let Mr. Obama own the tax increase and its measly 7.5% annual reduction in a $1.1 trillion deficit. Let the sequester take effect as planned, which at least means some spending restraint. Then engage Mr. Obama next year in trench warfare over spending and the debt limit as voters figure out that soaking the rich doesn't begin to solve the problem."

Via CNBC.com and WSJ.com.

Is it worth going into another recession by going off the fiscal cliff, to get US debt under control?

[stepped_in_it]

"Dean said higher taxes on everyone - not just the wealthy - are necessary and that the benefit of tax increases and spending cuts might be worth sending the country back into recession."
All you hard nosed liberals, read that twice. You wanted higher taxes on the rich and now YOU get higher taxes.....LMAO!
And even after all these tax increases, it still won't help! D.C. >>>control YOUR spending FIRST (please)!

[Coolvoter]

Middle class already has higher taxes, remember we don't get those billionaire tax cuts LMAO haha lol hehe

[woodtick57]

Actually, Dean is correct. But I disagree witht the timing, wait til the economy is back on it's feet, then lets do what every economist worths their salts knows we have to do. Raise tax revenue and cut spending. We can start the spending cuts now, though.

[woodtick57]

which billionair tax cuts are those...?@Coolvoter

[Fishbone345]

@woodtick57 I believe he's speaking about deductions, write-offs, loopholes. People call it what they will, it's all the same. If you have a team of accountants in your pockets, you won't pay more. Not sure what they are so worried about.

[Rocker]

Fact is that probably nobody knows the reaction. A recession may the only the mild result or best scenario. The parties are going to have to realize that their platform ideology is going to have to go down the drain. Everybody is going to have to pay up with higher taxation. And programs will have to be cut. And some better efficiency will have to be introduced in running governments from the federal to the states. My pet peeves are the abuse within the systems; there are many.

[jessejaymes]

The question assumes another recession if the cost restraints are put in place. I don't agree. It should comfort Wall Street. We need to stop this out on control spending on Military Contractors and that addresses part of it. And it would be nice if Romney paid the same percentage of tax on income as I do. I could live with that, whatever it is.

[methinks]

Hey! I have investments too! I don't want my capital gains taxes increased. People go after Romney because it's his sole income source, but in reality, it is for lots of people, albeit at a lower level, so if you increase cap gains taxes, that would also include the proceeds from the sale of your larger home when you downsize after the kids fly the nest as well.

Be careful for what you wish for; you may just get it.

[Ashstop]

@methinks
From what I can read on here I think some dont care how much they lose as long as the wealthy lose theirs!

[jessejaymes]

@methinks You know this mantra that "they've already paid taxes on that money" is an outright lie. No one is taxing the money he or I or you invest. What is being taxed is the PROFIT from that investment. That is no different from joe the brick layer investing his time in return for money, i.e. profit on his labor. And you are WRONG as wrong gets about downsizing your home after the kids leave. My wife died and the kids are moved out. I sold our larger house and moved back into our first house which we had kept as a rental. ONE transaction resulted in ZERO capital gains taxation on that one and always has. The move is on people who own vacation homes, who own multiple houses and make constant transactions. Why is it you right wingers think the ultra rich should not pay taxes on their profit? My entire income today is based on me receiving what youc all capital gains. So in essence my income is derived from the same source as Romney's but because I don't have his level of income I can't shelter as much to pay a much less amount. The tax laws are written by the rich and those politicians they buy. Why should I pay any more percentage on income than romney? I shouldn't. I'm the world's biggest supporter for cutting federal spending but the middle class should not have to shoulder a disproportionate amount of burden by percentage than the ultra rich. It does take some money to run a govt.

[stepped_in_it]

@jessejaymes it's about time somebody besides me understands "capital gain"! It is a PROFIT on already taxed money and has NOT been taxed yet! A capital gain is no different than any other "gain" and should be taxed as such. To say that people won't invest if their taxes will go up on their gain is ridiculous.

[woodtick57]

@methinks

Youmean like peoples' investment in their home? They don't pay ANY capital gains taxes on that when they sell. I bet they wouldn't want to give the gov't 15% of it, let alone 35%...

[Penn1699]

It's been the governments intention to increase taxes on everyone. Obama will get an infusion of money into the coffers and blame it on Republicans. A win: win situation for him and the governments unbridled expansion.
I'm certain, like Geitner and as Paulson did, they have a plan in place to "exempt" themselves from these increases.

[jessejaymes]

Here's the deal. No deal on the "fiscal cliff" or tax reform and therefore "everyone" pays more taxes but not really. The ultra rich will continue to abuse the tax code and pay less than 20%(romney should go from about 14% to about 18% actual) while the middle class like myself will go back to 37%. There is no way on the face of this earth that the ultra rich are going to EVER pay the same percentage of tax on earnings that we peons pay. They're in charge. they're not going to voluntarily do this and there is no way to make them do so.

[woodtick57]

Sincd the panel the gov't set up to figure out the best move to reduce our debt told us that very same thing, it most definitely i s their intention ans it should be no surprise to any citizen.

[Penn1699]

@jessejaymes yep. They "exempt" themselves. It's all about getting the middle class dollar and pointing the finger at the other party as blame.

[Penn1699]

@woodtick57 Mr Obama stated I his first address to the nation after this election. If his plan to tax the upper 2% doesn't work he will have to tax the middle class and cut some entitlements.
I say we cut their entitlements first!

[Keyjo]

@Penn1699
Yeah, let's cut ALL the wealthy loopholes and entitlements.

[sevenSecrets]

Merry Christmas everyone! And I partly agree, my lifestyle even as a middle class American, could take and extra 2 percent in taxes to help my own country. I believe in America and I have hope for it

[marine1]

Merry Christmas & God bless All

[PNWest]

Ditto.

[artjeb]

MERRY CHRISTMAS every one Stay healthy and safe

[Fishbone345]

When arguing about taxes, people need to use the right terminology. Then it doesn't sound as appealing.
You aren't arguing percentages of money. You are arguing how much of your labor is acceptable for the Government to own.
I stand with Ron Paul, none of it goddammit!! That's what we 'should' be arguing.

[jessejaymes]

In theory I totally agree with you but since you and I and everyone else knows that's not going to happen, what's the alternative. Every government in the world requires money to even do a basic job of self defense and infrastructure. We all now that more money is siphoned off to special interests on both sides than is spent on just causes. So what can be done about it?

[Fishbone345]

@jessejaymes Elect people who want to change it. People mistakenly believe they only have two choices and that to vote otherwise is a waste.
We start by using the correct terminology. It's not percentages of money. It's how much of our labor the Government owns. Mind you, a very Communist ideal. People talk about Socialism all the time without really understanding what it truly is. We already have parts of it in place.
Our country didn't tax people's incomes until 1913. What did we do before that? We had t

[Fishbone345]

@Fishbone345 we had to get money from somewhere! If spending weren't so over the top out of control, this conversation would be a no brainer for anyone.

[twinertia]

We can no longer continue taxing income (it's punitive and fails to meet the demands upon it). There must be a final surge in the old system that corporatizes everyone before a switch to a consumption tax can be made.

[marine1]

I agree, however, a consumption tax is most likely the last thing politicians want? What a consumption tax will do best is make people fiscally aware of their expenditures and cause them to be more conservative thus restricting goverments ability to redistribute wealth and waste other peoples money.

[Dan_Tien]

Risk another recession? If we have come out of the recession we were already in it must be due to creative bookkeeping. I don't see the evidence around me.

[grumpy]

Absolutely! But not for the reasons posted. Both the far right (Libertarians) and the far left (Socialists) have a common enemy (Liberals). The failure of a Liberal government will hasten the day of the final conflict between Libertarians and Socialists.

[PoliticalSpice]

Not precisely my opion, but at least you understand the difference between socialism and liberalism, which is more then I can say for a lot of people on here.

[grumpy]

@PoliticalSpice In 1932, Norman Thomas, the Socialist candidate, got about 1 million votes. In 1936, after 4 years of Roosevelt, Thomas didn't get 100 thousand votes. In this election, the Communist party appeared on our ballot after decades of absence.

[PoliticalSpice]

@grumpy hmmm....what state are you in? communist party was not on the ballot here. besides i thought the communist party disbanded, they used to be so boring anyway, except the one time they ran angella davis, i can not remember their campaugns at all. might not be the same one as originally.

And excuse me but I am not sure what point your getting at with the numbers you gave re: decrease in votes for socialist after FDR was in office 4 years, please elaborate.

[grumpy]

@PoliticalSpice When a Liberal was elected and government was shown to be sympathetic to peoples needs, the need for revolution was allayed.
In NY the name was one with Communist in it but not specifically "Communist Party".
But my vote was on the Workers Family line. Not Democrat line.

[PoliticalSpice]

@grumpy ok, but FDR was not your typical liberal. And this was not tge conmunist party, but a new communist group , funny I dod not notice.

Working families. I did the same thing, i avoid voting democrat as much as i can. I didn't know why, but from some posting you made I thought you opposed to obama.

[vws]

The Fiscal Cliff is the end result of not being able to work out an earlier compromise - there is no possibility of compromise with the current administration, or strength enough for either party to completely force their own agenda. The recession is already here but hidden by all of the BS coming out of Washington. When the re-newed taxes as well as Obama's medical taxes kick in - everyone will be paying over 50% in some form of tax.

[KyleMFb]

Hey we might not come out of this recession I think it's time the people storm Washington and start indiscriminately start shooting look republicans caused this mess republicans are keeping unemployment high and preventing a recovery now there probably going to push us over the cliff and when all the cuts happen and we sink into a deep depression worse than anything we've ever seen before republican are going to blame everyone but themselves

[DARSB]

The cliff isn't just taxes and government budget cuts. It's also the result of economic decisions made by people who believe the President was born in Kenya, that vaccines against cervical cancer cause sexual promiscuity, that people made homeless by Superstorm Sandy should "suck it up" and the solution to gun violence is more guns.

[Jim49418]

If we in fact do go over the so called fiscal cliff, you can thank Obama and his failure as a leader to avoid it. He's known for over a year that this was coming, yet he waited until the eleventh hour to address it.
If the end result is another recession, then he "Owns it".
I'm sure he will blame the republican's,...after all, thats about all he's done for the last four years, why would he change now.
Sooner or later, we have to address the debt issue. And sooner or later, we're all going to have to pay more, and our government is going to have to spend less.

[thejimbo]

Obama has never wanted anything other than more government. He believes that government drives the economy. He believes that a heavy hand of government is needed to control those "evil," "greedy" corporations. He believes that the heavy hand of government is needed to ensure "equality"--not of opportunity, but of outcomes.

There is only one way to counterbalance Obama: let the U.S. economy take a nosedive. Even then, Obama will stick to his guns--and his narrative--and blame Republican politics for what is clearly the result of bad economic policy: easy money, profligate government spending, punishment or success, reward of idleness.

The U.S. has built a large base of wealth over the last 50 years. That's a good thing, because we're going to need it to survive the Obama years and their aftermath. We're living off of savings and borrowings, and precious few of Obama's policies will generate new wealth.

He and his minions don't like wealth. They don't understand how to create it. When they see it, they want to take a hold of it.

Goodbye U.S.; hello France.

[PoliticalSpice]

I kinda like france. Socialized medicine. One month vacations. Great food. Six hours from legal weed and window girls of Amsterdam. Hi speed rail. Except for nuclear power, and snotty attitudes, I think its great!

Seriously, the only way the military budget will get cut is by going over the cliff. I think tax increases on those making over $500,000 or so need a small bump up. I really would love to see a move away from income tax to a point of purchase tax so that people didnot have to file tax forms. I'd also like to see legal weed, legal
prostitution, single payer health care and high speed rail. I think my chance of seeing all these things is about the same: zero.

Tge repubs made a mistake rejecting the deal, I doubt obama will restore taxes to earners over 300,000 pnce the bush cuts expire. Sadly for me, I do see a deal to prevent the military cuts being decided, so in the end I see the worse of both worlds, and, very likely, a new house speaker in january and a lot of tantrums in the repub party if bohner makes a deal that passes with dems and sliver of repubs. Basically a reversal of the clinton legislative coalition where clinton won things like nagya with more repubs then dems, i see something preserving the military budget abd middle class tax cuts emerging with more dem support then repubs. But I have been surprized before, and if bohner fears losing his seat more then a bad economy, the tea party may uet prevail. Personally, I am rooting for the tea party!

[ConserveUSA]

Not France. Obama introduced North Korea to America.

[Santiagoquijan]

And yes, it is the Republican policies result, of course there will be millions who
disagree with my statement, even though they know I'm right. I will tell you the
old saying "there is no worse blind than the one that doesn't want to see" can't
they remember Bill Clinton's economic policies?

[Grubby]

Bill Clinton's economic policies were REPUBLICAN economic policies. He was president with republican majorities in both the house and the senate. Gingurich and the contract with America were responsible for conservative spending, getting people off of welfare, fewer regulations, and the resulting prosperity. Obama policies could not be farther from the Clinton policies if they tried. It is really funny to watch the liberals rationalize this idiotic president's unrestrained spending and somehow equate it to the Clinton years. Clinton compromised with Republicans, and moved center during the last 6 years of his presidency. Obama has been moving farther left every single year. So, I say yes, let's move back to the Clinton policies, lower spending, lower taxes, fewer regulations. Obama will never agree of course. He is intent on driving the economy into the ground to achieve his liberal vision, and hopes he can blame his bad policies on the republicans to avoid the blame.

[Vance1]

going off the fiscal cliff?
I believe that already took place about $14 trillion dollars ago!!!!!
Since Reagan ...all the last POTUS'S Failed we the people!!!

[billyleewoods]

Tough decisions must be made.All the hidden agendas that our politicians have are making it very difficult, if not impossible, to make decisions that would benefit the average citizen. I say step one is stop selling chinese goods. We should pay the higher price for american goods and keep the money here. After all, China sells very lit tle of our goods to their people. China is not our friend. second.. we should cut ALL aid to the entire world until we get our economy under control.... thats a start

[RobertJHarsh]

I say bring on the false crisis of the fiscal cliff. Both sides could care less about the people actually affected by it and the people Barky wants to tax have people far smarter than he or his IRS to avoid paying.

Non-issue.

[Romney_Rube]

America's economy is tanked no matter what they do over the next several years. America is now the 2nd Japanese economy. The FED will deliberately keep interests rates at ZERO forever coupled with lackluster employment growth thanks largely to FREE TRADE policies designed to suck the nation dry. Eventually the entitlement hammer and the 401K accounts will go down the toilet.

America has now entered the fifth year of a debt-laden Japanese style economy.