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FISCAL CLIFF

Fiscal Cliff Deal Likely To Avoid Spending Cuts

Win for Democrats, loss for Republicans

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by David Mark

Editor-in-Chief t

Image: AP.

It looks like a fiscal cliff deal will preserve tax cuts for the middle class and below. But congressional Republicans won't get the heavy spending cuts they've demanded. And that's fine with many Americans.

In a POPVOX online poll, 66 percent opposed a proposal to switch the way cost-of-living adjustments are made for Social Security benefits. Rather than pegging benefits to the Consumer Price Index as currently calculated, they would be tied to a "chain-weighted" Consumer Price Index. The switch is estimated to save as much as $125 billion in additional benefits over the next decade.

Democrats contend slashing programs would hurt real people. Democratic activist Christine Pelosi (@sfpelosi) took issue with a "Meet The Press" roundtable discussion on fiscal cliff negotiations.

"At very least #MTP should ask its custodians & crews if they agree with armchair pundits on raising retirement age & cutting earned benefits," she tweeted.

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) basically admitted defeat for the GOP. "Hats off to the president. He won," Graham said on "Fox News Sunday". "What have we accomplished? Political victory for the president."

Graham added, "He's going to get tax rate increases, maybe not at [$]250[,000], but on upper-income Americans. And the sad news for the country is we've accomplished very little in not becoming Greece or getting out of debt. This bill won't affect the debt situation."

Politix reporting and via POPVOX and Huffington Post.
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Comments (view in Forum)

  • martydotcom
    !
    This should get the intransigent conservatives all warm & fuzzy :). Maybe they don't care about "we the people" but their Defense Industry donors may get them off their asses
    http://politi.co/ViTAb4
    Leon Panetta told Lindsay Graham Defense Dept layoff notices will go out
    Panetta says 'if we do this, it will be shooting the Defense Department in the head, and we'll have to send out 800,000 layoff notices at the beginning of Jan
  •
    PNWest
    !
    What the GOP is trying to do is get the dems to go along with cutting social security. When the vote comes ALL of the democrats will be voting to cut social security and just enough republicans for the bill to pass will vote for it. In 2014 the GOP will then hammer the dems for cutting social security and point out that they voted against it. Another example of the GOP putting party ahead of country.
  • SavageMazx
    !
    Or the sales guys who sold the feds that toilet seat....I worked for a company that did a bunch of federal work we bid jobs at Pendleton, Hood, Hill, let's just say I have bid work on amost every base this side of Denver...IDQ and other contract vehicles are so laden with stupid spending it was sickening....I asked no no longer bid federal stuff and moved over to the private sector...the system is broken. Systemic fraud and gouging are rampant and it makes no matter what side of the aisle your political views fall on, I have seen contracts inflated by 700% of what you would pay for in the private sector.
  • View all 14 replies >
  • o
    WattheTyler
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    What the question doesn't have the answer both raising taxes and cutting spending. You have to do both in or to lower the debt. It just depends on what stuff we cut in spending like say the massive defense spending we have or what oil subsides or banking subsidies we currently have. Raising taxes and cutting spending is not mutually exclusive.
  • JoeJared
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    Audit the Fed and all major banks, liquidate these banks, and establish a sound currency, based on resources of real value. Also, tax the hell out of foreign imports such that it becomes unaffordable to buy anything not American made.
  • JoeJared
    !
    @martydotcom I accept gold and silver bullion as a form of payment from my customers. That's as real world as it gets, and unlike the dollar, has real intrinsic value.
  • martydotcom
    !
    @martydotcom just explain what we'll do with unsaleable exports when prices plummet below mfg cost, great for econ use whatever curancy work in prepper heaven
    last time protectionist econ. was great depression Sound like we're heading that way ?
  • View all 11 replies >
  • Russell797
    !
    We have to raise taxes and reduce spending, but we will not likely eliminate the dept or balance the budget. Whatever gains are made will soon be overwhelmed by future inadequate revenues and increases in spending due to inflation, pay raises everywhere, insurance premium hikes, gas and oil price hikes etc. etc. ....Any system dependent on never ending continuous growth is doomed to failure. That's the bottom line.
  • PNWest
    !
    The "double dip" recession! That's what the right wingers said was going to happen back in 2009. Right before the DJIA nearly doubled. Thanks for the nostalgia. I certainly hope you are right about it now as you were in 2009.
  • u
    Wafflecone
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    If low taxes stimulated the economy we should be at full employment since tax rates are at historic lows.

    By the way; how far apart can the recessions be and still be considered a "double dip" recession?
  • SavageMazx
    !
    @Wafflecone raising taxes and removing more income to sustain a system that is going to fail it just another "finger in the dike" tactic. Let's face it, we are all going to end up paying higher taxes, removing more income from us that could be spent. California has chased business out of state with its taxes and stupid spending. My taxes will go up, forcing me to raise my prices to keep my door open, or lay off more of my already lean staff. It's a chain reaction that can't be stopped. We are top heavy in the government, spending more than we take in. The fall is already motion, we just do realize it yet.
  • o
    Republican5001
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    @SavageMazx Have 75 layoff notices ready to go out January 2nd. There will be another round at the beginning of April. Third round week before the 4th of July and last round will be just after Thanksgiving of this coming year. And my superiors have opted to not pay for medical insurance anymore, because our department has determined it is cheaper to just pay the penalty(tax) in April when we file.
  • DARSB
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    Retaining Bush tax cuts for middle class folks, taking the debt ceiling off the table for the near term and extending unemployment benefits seem to be the immediate necessities.

    Trying to fundamentally revamp entitlement programs in a lame duck session? Stupid and doomed.
  • Rocker
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    This is what caught my eye in the topic post - what Mr. Graham said. My knee jerk reaction is for the parties to stop worrying which side won or not and concentrate on doing what is best for the country as a whole.
  • martydotcom
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    regrettably what you suggest requires compromise and bipartisanship, two words non- existent in the vocabulary of the House of Reps or The Senate. All bow to Grover
  • u
    seedtick
    !
    Trying to do anything in a lame duck session is stupid. I think those in congress are short on thinking skills, anyway....and trying to do so in a hurry is stupid.
    But, I love Larry Gatlin's analogy...."Two ole boys went out in the country and bought a truck load of watermelons for fifty cents each. They came to town and sold them for fifty cents apiece. When they had sold the last one they counted their money and decided that they had to buy a bigger truck so they could make a profit."
    That's what is going on in Washington DC today...A whole bunch of stupid spending, and then spend some more to cover their stupidity.
  • frigginhell
    !
    The idea to put it off until after the election and during the lame duck session was the GOP's. They were kicking the can down the road because the were beyond delusional in their belief Romney would win. Now that plan A hasn't worked out for them -keeping the economy in the toilet in an effort to make Obama a one term president- they're going with plan A+ which is keeping the economy even further in the toilet and still blaming Obama and hope they can win the next election with a slightly better candidate.
  • View all 11 replies >
  • PNWest
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    You want cuts - I got cuts for you..... Reduce military spending. No more troops in 130+ countries like we have now. No more tax breaks for oil companies. Make sure that farm support only goes to small farms not giant agricultural corporations. That's a start.
  • kathyparsell
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    @PNWest @PNWest That's a baby step. How about the IRS, EPA, FDA and the office of Budget and Management since Obama has yet to present one.
  • Thunderchicken
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    @PNWest

    I agree but can you show what tax breaks oil companies get that other businesses don't? I'm really having trouble finding them. BTW I'm for eliminating any tax breaks. You earn X, you pay Y percentage.
  • View all 38 replies >
  • o
    Antiecm
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    Tell the Republican party to not budge an inch. Don't give in and don't give anything that goes against the Republican parties desires. Give the people just what they voted for, Obama. Don't do ANYTHING that will make his job easier, and don't allow him to make any moves against the country. He cannot screw us if you do not allow it. Let Obama run us over the cliff and into the ground. I personally think that is a great legacy for him, to be the President that crashed America. Yep, that should just about do it with the good people of this country being accosted by the democrats. Bring on the recession!!!
  • PNWest
    !
    Leave it to a conservative to express this sentiment - " Bring on the recession!!!". Why do conservatives hate America?
  • Art
    !
    Agree! It is time for the country to wake up and realize what it allowed the Mexicans to do--elect our President.Four million more them voters now than four years ago and Obama won by two million. The Mexicans elected him.
    If Obama can do what he wants to do, the national debt will likely by 30 T in four years.
    Like "The Donald" said, this election was not democracy.
    The liberals don't care so long as he won.
  • o
    Antiecm
    !
    @PNWest Don't get me wrong dude, I do not hate America. I love this country, I fought for this country. I sure hate to see idiot ideas ruin it. But the people have spoken, they want Obama, so all I am saying is give them what they ask for. Just play no part in any concessions. Let him do his thing on his own. If he crashes, so be it.
  • PNWest
    !
    @Antiecm Then get out of the way. Have Boehner bring up the Senate bill (3412) for an up or down vote. Very simple.
  • PNWest
    !
    @Art Don't be a racist. Obama got 65,892,518 votes, about 5 million more than Romney. Why are you blaming Mexicans? You have been listening to "The Donald" too much.
  • View all 17 replies >
  • Neo_NtheMatrix
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    obama won the election. The people have said loud and clear they want economic destruction. Let them have it. I say Boehner and McConnell should get out of obama's way and let obama destroy the economy. Me and my family are prepared to weather the next four years of economic upheaval. The people that won't be able to weather the storm are the obama supporters. Once obama gets through ruining the nation for his own supporters, they will be more than ready to embrace an economic approach that conservatives have been preaching since day one. The bottom line is this, liberalism is failure for all. Conservatism is the only route to success. Liberals will learn one way or the other. Looks like they are choosing the other.
  • PNWest
    !
    Good afternoon to you Neo. I agree with you that Obama won and that Boehner and McConnell should get out of the way. The sooner they do the sooner we can "destroy" this country by raising taxes on the rich, reducing wasteful military spending, helping the poor and rebuilding the middle class, and reducing the debt. If Obama "ruins" the nation like he has done so far the DJIA will be up another 80% or so. I think I could weather that quite nicely.
  • PNWest
    !
    @kathyparsell The DJIA as a measure of the countries well being is not perfect but is a pretty good bogie for economic well being. When the stock market does well traditionally the country does also. When the stock market crashes the economy does too. Even a conservative should know this.
  • Ashstop
    !
    Well said, Neo
    The left reminds me of my daughter growing up, she couldn't understand why I couldn't spend money I didn't have, if she could have run my budget back then I'd be bankrupt today, thank goodness she matured and lives within her means today... I guess some people never mature though, the only way they believe anything is to suffer through it... Or blame someone else
  • PoliticalSpice
    !
    Sorry this took longer then promised, but you asked me how I would for my advice on how to correct our fiscal woes. This memo outlines how I would recover from the present economic crisis and make changes necessary to avoid the worse aspects of this problem again.

    As such it will cover five primary areas, and will seek to do so by adhering to specific constitutional principles that have heretofore been to long ignored.

    I will be in a few parts and focus on five specific areas: Spending, Cuts , Investment in National Infrastructure, Job Creation Fiscal & Monetary policy, and Tax Reform.

    As it touches other discussion I’ve had I think other should have the chance to read and comment.@martydotcoom @ConserveUSA @Cheenoguy @Thunderchicken @jessejaymes @Sonny @mimi57 @Zazziness @Tralee @woodtick57 @kirbstomp1 @UnCommonBoston @Roco @jamesmitchell @Denizen_Kate @sittinduck @DARSB @politixmary @AceLuby @marine1 @stepped_in_it @Fishbone345 @bsking @Romney2012 @MongoAPillar @Republican5001 @Vermonter

    Part I: Spending cuts:

    To accommodate those who insist that cuts occur before revenue is raised I recommend the following actions be taken at once. We should cut the military budget at least 50%. We should start by closing all u.s. military bases in other countries, then scrap weapons systems, starting with pork barrel weapons projects that do not perform as promised by the developer, such as the f-35 fighter plane

    Go back to the constitutional system of keeping minimal full time soldiers for the purpose of maintaining military facilities relying on federalization of state militia and only raise an army when needed for defense, as the constitution stipulates. As soldiers serve under two year contracts, personnel should be reassigned as appropriate to state militia and military bases closest to there home states, except that they may be assigned for duties maintaining equipment, national guard duties to provide disaster relief, and patrols along the northern and southern borders, and monitoring of docks and ports to protect against smuggling in terrorist, or weapons of mass destruction in shipping containers. Special forces units shall be kept intact. Upon termination of the two year contracts the military shall be scaled back to the very cost effective way to fund national defense set forth in seven paragraphs of the Constitution contained in article I section 8, creating the type of military intended by the founders: A basic core of soldiers to maintain equipment and facilities, a small core of special forces units, and state militia shall be in place for initial response to an attack. This reduced military capacity will inhibit the executive from launching war unilaterally and will require that to launch a war an army need be raised as set forth in the constitution. There will be enormous saving on personnel cost as two year contracts of service members expire.

    End subsidies to the oil industry and stop subsidizing nuclear power. Repeal Price Anderson and make them buy insurance on the private market. Doing these things alone would probably wipe out a big portion of the federal deficit. Lets see how much these measures cut the budget, before considering other cuts.

    Policy on flood insurance should also change. It needs to be phase out. Those that have policies should be allowed to keep them, but as disasters happen they policy should be pay, but refuse to renew and entourage them to move away from areas we know are going to have another flood within a few decades if not sooner.
    Not only will it will save money long term, and benefit the environment, but it will save lives and prevent people from going through the suffering that is assured will happen again at a future time.
  • View all 77 replies >
  • Thunderchicken
    !
    "But congressional Republicans won't get the heavy spending cuts they've demanded. And that's fine with many Americans."

    Which Americans? The ones who flunked math. Or the ones who think they receive more than they contribute.
  • u
    Tolpuddle
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    There's not enough options to vote for in the poll. Raise taxes for those earning in excess of $400 thou but not to an exorbitant amount. Since the only spending cuts that ever get on the table concern those who can't afford any more cuts, forget about that. Create some dammed jobs so people can go back to work and pay taxes once again and the deficit will take care of itself.
  • PuroChorizo361
    !
    Raise taxes and stop the I.R.S. From Settling for less! If you can't manage a business properly then maybe business is not your thing. The government wouldn't be so involved if you greedy idiots would take care of your business!
  • twinertia
    !
    There just aren't enough classes left to drain (the poor have jack diddly, the middle class hangs by a thread, and the rich "structure" their wealth with the tax codes they've written). New revenue sources need to be created, and the people are the only ones that can do that. Copy the top dogs: start businesses that support existing businesses, borrow against them, invest the borrowings, and pay yourself a respectable wage. That way, everyone wins.
  • u
    Jim49418
    !
    What Obama gets by raising taxes on the top two percent of Americans is squat, it only amounts to about eight days of interest payments on the debt.
    Obama, and the liberal's in congress are really the party of "no"!
    They've refused to accept the fact that we need to cut spending, and want to continue their spending binge.
    I say,....let us go over the so called fiscal cliff.
    Let the manditory spending cuts take place.
  • u
    Jim49418
    !
    Not sure how cutting down on speeding will help.........
    But,.....if we do go over the so called "cliff" taxes will go up, and spending will also be cut.
    I dont think a last minute deal to avoid the "cliff" and not cut spending is the best thing.
    Going over the fiscal cliff sounds better than the deal Obama has proposed.
  • u
    KyleMFb
    !
    @Jim49418 Obama is the only one that has even offered a solution alls republicans can say is no that won't work we don't like that deal boo hoo hoo it's kinda hard to come up with a solution that makes everyone happy when only one side will talk
  • u
    Jim49418
    !
    @KyleMFb Really?
    Do you even have a clue as to what Obama's "solution" is?
    I doubt it.
    Obama is the one crying "boo hoo hoo" as you say, because he isnt getting his way.

    " it's kinda hard to come up with a solution that makes everyone happy when only one side will talk "

    I agree with that statement.
    Too bad that Obama doesnt.
    It's his way, or the highway,......... over the cliff we go,.........
  • u
    KyleMFb
    !
    @Jim49418 his solution is rasing taxes and it really is his way or the highway he's the president and the democrats are the only ones talking talking to republicans is like talking to a brick wall theres no point republicans only want to make Obama and dems look bad at all cost no Matter what
  • View all 7 replies >
  • AlexMIA
    !
    I have to appoligize. I've been using the term entitlements interchangebly as if it were welfare. Social Security and Medicare is owed not given, therefore entitled. I've always believed that, just had a false perception of that term. Ooops!
  • Thegrif
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    Raise taxes, yet keep spending at an unprecedented rate only serves to shut people up as they quietly go down the drain. It is like putting a band aid on a sucking chest wound, worthless.
  • o
    Sonny
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    That "spending" is THE only thing that has kept this country from sliding into a "depression" thus, far...People who understand basic economics already know that one.
  • Thegrif
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    @Sonny spending your way out of debt does not work, and in no way would be considered a long term solution, it merely buys you time, which would be fine, except your President is spending money like it is water. Which is Obama's reason in that little tax increase, it is a baby pacifier. It shuts up those screaming for help. But, that little increase will not even pay for the added gov't needed to administrate the programs, like Obamacare.

    "That "spending" is THE only thing that has kept this country from sliding into a "depression" thus, far..."

    So where does that money come from?
    All spending has done is dig us into a hole that has created a burden of around 180,000 dollars for every man, woman and child today.
    Spend your way out of debt, Lmao...
    That's choice, hilarious.
    So if you think it works, then do this for me and prove it, just tell the electric company, cell phone company, water company,
    "I know I owe you money, I know I ain't paid you in years, but I am spending my money as fast as I can on all this other stuff and somehow my bills are going to magically get paid."
    Let me know how spending your money instead of paying down your bills works out for ya.
    Ridiculousness.
    I understand a good bit of econ. But spending your way out of debt and enlarging gov't size beyond the size of your tax increase and your ability to pay, I'm sorry, makes NO sense.
    Must not work either since America's credit rating has dropped and is about to drop again, so apparently our creditors don't believe in it either.
    Obama offers pipe dreams and temporary fixes, which he sold to America with the skill of a surgeon.
    I know its hard to come to grips with the fact that you were scammed, but you were. Keep your eyes open and remember all the people on here who told you it was happening.
    Whatever happens Sonny, I just hope there is still a America in the end.
  • o
    Sonny
    !
    @Thegrif No. No one is talking about trying to "spend our way out of debt"...That is one of the problems with this whole argument....So many people on the right just don't seem to understand it. And they mix all of this stuff together---and really misrepresent the facts...Big Time!---Look at it this way. If you had a store, and suddenly no one came into your store to buy anything---(because they all lost their jobs)---your store would quickly go out of business---and so would the store next door, and down the street, and in the next town.. Then, pretty soon the companies that made the products that you would normally put on your shelf would then cease to exist, because you all stopped buying from them...And the service companies who needed their products would also start closing down one, right after the other....etc...But supposed the government said---well we can not afford to lose those manufacturers and businesses, and allow our selves to go into a depression. Additionally, we can not also allow millions of people to die in our streets....

    Now I know that republicans think that the answer to every problem is simply to just.."let them die"...but most of the civilized planet fortunately just does not think that way...So, once again, if not for the government, at this time, stepping in...we would be experiencing what it must have been like in the early 1930's under the Great Depression. Throwing out a lot of false and fake claims like "Obamacare has kept this country from sliding into a depression"---is indicative of the way that the right continues to take EVERYTHING out of context---or just simply doesn't understand basic economics or elementary english...
  • Thegrif
    !
    @Sonny "Now I know that republicans think that the answer to every problem is simply to just.."let them die"...but most of the civilized planet fortunately just does not think that way..."

    Now Sonny, that ain't right and you know better than that. You say we don't understand but maybe it's you who does not understand. Maybe you base you understanding on how it might work in a perfect world, this is far from a perfect world.
    As I asked in a previous post, "Where does the money come from?"
    Obama has tried to stimulate the economy with stimulus packages, they failed. Something I learned, and screwed up and told my college econ Prof. Many years ago was, economist are very seldom right, their economic models and predictions backfire more times than not.
    It is true that everything starts with the consumer, I get that, if consumers do not consume then the chain is broke. But when our gov't borrows 48 cents of every dollar to do it, that is just exchanging one problem for another. My feeling is that if America was more business friendly, then more people would be working, producing more goods and services, thus lowering prices of those goods. This current way of doing thing promotes a sluggish economy, promotes lower supply to meet the demand, thus drives prices upward. This puts more distance between people and financial independence.
    And really, businesses are folding up as we speak anyway, manufacturing business has declined, more people out of work, great!
    Unemployment is down slightly, but that really don't mean much. Numbers down cause of temp seasonal hires in retail, also people still unemployed but out of unemployment benefits are not counted in unemployment statistics, then you have the under employed who are working little part time jobs in effort to ease their pain and in hopes that it will lead to something more- prolonging the likely inevitable.

    The problem with using other peoples money is, sooner or later you run out of other peoples money.
  • o
    Sonny
    !
    @Thegrif I have never used the phrase "perfect world" or perfect anything for that matter. I have heard only people on the right use it, when ever they want to take something out of context. The money comes from taxes that our government collects for its citizens...(that once again, is just basic economics). Obama has had ONE stimulus package NOT "packages"---Althoug h he should have asked for more. And the one that he did have DID WORK....Just ask some of those right wing governors, like the one's in Ohio, and Indiana, and Wisconsin, and Michigan...------But you did get this right: "if consumers do not consume then the chain is broke"...Now you're starting to catch on!

    I'm not sure where the rest of your reasoning is trying to go after that...But the Government has a duty and responsibility to try to do all it can to prevent a depression. If you don't like what is happening...Then please tell your so-called "job creators" to start hiring people, as opposed to just begging for more & more tax concessions and no regulations...That would help a great deal...Then we would not have to borrow as much.
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