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ARMED CAMPS

Should Federal Gun-Free School Zones Be Outlawed?

A new congressman says yes

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by David Mark

Editor-in-Chief t +

Rep. Thomas Massie (R-KY). Image: AP.

Current federal law making it illegal to bring guns into or near schools should be abolished, says Rep. Thomas Massie. The freshman KY Republican introduced legislation to that effect on the first day of Congress, arguing the zones are "ineffective".

"They make people less safe by inviting criminals into target-rich, no-risk environments," Massie said in a statement, reported the Louisville Courier-Journal. "Gun free zones prevent law-abiding citizens from protecting themselves, and create vulnerable populations that are targeted by criminals."

Massie said his legislation is in answer to calls from President Barack Obama and others for tougher gun restrictions after the Dec. 14 elementary school shootings in Newtown, CT, that left 20 children and six staff members dead. In AZ, Attorney General Tom Horne recently proposed legislation that would allow each school in the state to train and arm its principal or another staff member.

Massie said his bill is similar to one first introduced by then-Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX), in 2007 that had no co-sponsors and languished in a House committee. Massie is considered one of the more libertarian-leaning Republicans to join Congress. He co-sponsored the gun-free zones schools with Rep. Steve Stockman (R-TX), who previously served a single House term 1995-97. In Stockman's earlier House tenure he was known as a staunch defender of the Second Amendment.

Via the Louisville Courier-Journal.

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Do gun-free zones make schools less safe?

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206 Comments (view in Forum)

  • AlexMIA
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    Single out and control one entrance into the school, put cameras an metal detectors, and post two trained armed guards with M4's and side arms at the controlled enterance and a comunications guard in security room monitoring cameras (also armed the same way for back up).
  • AlexMIA
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    @PoliticalSpice That is a real solution. It's call crowed flow control. Other exits can be locked from outside allowing for emergency exiting while triggering an alarm. The idea would be every one funnels through a check point with metal detectors to make sure no one is armed. The gaurds make sure no one armed gets in and the entrance isn't breached or attacked. It's a better solution than stripping away at peoples second amendment rights.
  • PoliticalSpice
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    @AlexMIA I'm familiar with the concept, I just think that if you're going to create a soceity of people acclimated to being searched and living in a police state, the second amendment might as well go too.

    Tjose who would trade liberty for security deserve neither.
  • AlexMIA
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    @PoliticalSpice Not saying searched just metal detected. We get policed like that already, doesn't mean you have to give up your second amendment rights. F that, take my sympathy and solutions this way or don't take it at all. But leave my rights alone as I'm sure you'd want yours.
  • PoliticalSpice
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    @AlexMIA I'm all for the second amendment, but not as a person who lives in ab irban area it has little effect on me. And here is the point, folks that favor police state solutions, immigration checks by police, searches when entering public buildings, requiring govt picture id to vote, exapanding the rights of police, etc. could care less when the rights of us that do not want those things are infringed upon, but ypu scream bloody murder when rights you care about are infringed upon. My attitude is no one should be subject to voter id checks, questioned about immigration status, compelled to go someplace and then compelled upon entering to have themselves searched in any manner, or have their second amendment rights violated; but if the rights I care about are getting violated, why on earth would I care if your guns are taken from you, they have already taken away my rights, why not yours too?

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  • Medicinebow
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    I'm all for the government leading by example and having them remove their own and hired guns first. How many politicians calling for gun control enjoy ccw permits and armed security? How many armed guards does Obama have watching his kids while they are in school? If armed people are bad let the government and President get rid of theirs first.

    Gun free zones get people killed. Of course the government believes it OK for them to have guns.
  • DARSB
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    @Medicinebow You were doing so well until the "How many armed guards does Obama have watching his kids while they are in school?" remark.

    This President, like every President since Cleveland, gets bodyguards. And the President's family has been provided Secret Service protection since 1917 - by an act of Congress. http://goo.gl/F9qGg
  • mudpike
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    @DARSB Do you realize that besides the Secret Service afforded BO's children - this School employs 7 or 8 armed guards on duty , every day . In fact a week or so ago there was a notice that the school was looking for another armed guard to work the night-turn shift. Why would he want his children protected by 'gunman' if guns were the real problem ? Why the as usual 'double standard'?
  • nomocrap
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    For what its worth Obama's idea of gun control wouldn't take away all of the armed secret service protecting him. He has stated that more guns in school isn't the answer. If he thinks it is such a good idea to take away the teachers rights to protect themselves and our children and that putting armed guards in the school isn't the answer maybe he should show how much he really believes in his stated ideals and give up his armed security.

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  • PoliticalSpice
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    I want to disagree with you, just cause its expected, but I'm having difficulty coming up with a reason. Somehow I find it hard to beleive the newton shooter would have stopped and turned around if the zone was posted as gun free. Drug free zones, the same thing. We as a soceity need less laws, more common sense and - here it comes Neo - more economic equallity. That is jobs, not welfare, socialized medicine, not obama care, and schools that teach critical thinking, and of course, no fox news...

    I just couldn't leave the buiscuit alone...
  • PoliticalSpice
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    @artjeb good for you! Too bad you hadn't been there earlier. maybe you Incidently, you just proved my point I said the signs wouldn't have detterred him and they didn't.

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  • Denizen_Kate
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    Noticed that. I think he's kind of cute in a geeky way, but am more impressed by the fact that he proposed legislation on his first day in office. Whether or not I agree with the legislation, he does seem eager to get to work on something that actually matters.

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  • MadAmerican
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    Well his political career is over because that is the first common sense suggestion I have heard from a congressman on this issue. Damn, someone finally figured out unarmed people don't have a chance.
  • hwyangel
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    I agree. And I'm surprised that after reading all of these posts that there hasn't been one single mention of the parent who was responsible for allowing the child to have access to a gun. If a parent left a sharp knife on the coffee table with a toddler in the house the parent would be prosecuted for neglect.
  • tomincali
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    has those signs ever saved a life/ kind of reminds me of the signs in an arizona national park warning signs instead of doing something about the problem.
  • Dan_Tien
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    It appears that the Gun Free School Zones Act of 1990 already does not prohibit the carry and discharge of firearms within a school zone:

    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.

    So why is it necessary to repeal this law in order to allow schools to arm school employees or hire armed guards? Is it necessary for the safety of school kids or is it just a way for a new Congressman to make a name for himself?
  • mtkopf
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    You hit the nail on the head. All this guy is trying to do is curry favor with the NRA. He reminds me of the student who brings an apple for the teacher on the first day of class.
  • nomocrap
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    You need to read the way the law is written again. The Gun Free School Zone Act allows the carry of concealed weapons by individuals and allows for the discharge of a firearm. The problem is that the language used basically allows on duty law enforcement or on duty contracted security to discharge a firearm in the course of their duty. It allows the school to have a shooting program for the students and have them discharge a firearm while participating in the program. What is does not allow is for an individual whether a teacher, a students parent, an off duty officer or off duty contracted security guard to discharge a firearm. This means that if a parent or even an off duty officer discharges their weapon to prevent a mass killing they are in violation of the act even though they are acting appropriately.
  • Dan_Tien
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    @nomocrap I agree that the wording is convoluted, but my interpretation of it remains as stated in my original post. An individual (such as a parent) who is not under contract and is not legally allowed to carry a gun onto school grounds could be prosecuted for shooting in a school zone, even to protect students, under this law. I do not see any clause that removes discretion for that prosecution from local authorities, though.
  • Warrior_Judge
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    @Dan_Tien
    I would have to say that if a person isn't legally allowed to carry a gun, they have no business going anywhere with a gun, school or otherwise. TN is trying to pass a law that allows teachers to go armed if they want to and will provide the training to those that do. My problem with that is, what if the teacher is having a bad day and has a gun.
  • Dan_Tien
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    @Warrior_Judge I am of the opinion that if armed protection is placed in schools, it should be police officers, not teachers. I have stated as much in an earlier thread. Others strongly disagree.

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  • Chrysalis
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    I just can't help but think of a scenario where some guy has a bunch of guns in his vehicle outside of a school and nothing can be said or done to him because there is no gun-free school zone act, and no one suspects anything because plenty of people tote around guns while taking their children to school and that man has something sinister planned, and it's right under everyone's nose, but hey someone having a gun near children isn't something to fret about saith the NRA...and you can't say anything about it because gun-loving adults are going to cry their eyes out if you tell them they can't have their weapons near children, how dare you suggest any of them would be capable of hurting a child? Wonder how much easier lifting a gun-free school zone will make it for child molesters and those who would accost them to threaten children into their cars? What the gun-free school zone act does is make it where anyone with a gun on the premises can get in trouble for that alone. Without this act, what reason do you have to ask someone with a gun to leave? School security and police officers should be the only people allowed on school premises with a gun.
  • AlexMIA
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    NRA or not as it is now, I go to school armed and also pick up my son at school armed. I have never had a problem and no one has ever suspected. Am I going to leave my gun in the car so that some one can possibly steal it? Hell no!
  • tomincali
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    @AlexMIA that is the worst place to leave a gun in my area,cars are broke into and stolen daily the jails are all full and they cannot keep them locked up. safest place besides being on you is locked inside a good safe too heavy for them to carry off.
  • jmann88
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    It doesn't matter if there drug free, gun free, psychos are gonna break laws. Think it's a good idea that someone that is well trained should carry. Hire these returning home military vets as undercover guards like a trustee. That would be good use of tax dollars spent.
  • Speedieg
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    I think it is possible to have armed guards at schools and not make it prison like. I have worked in buildings with armed guards and they were friendly and made you aware they were there for your safety.
  • DomesticG
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    This happened not too far from where I live...I shared the story on my FB and said "WTG! Though I might recommend more target practice..."

    Not too long before this in another home, another city...intruders broke into a home. The woman was home, and unarmed, and tried to hide. When the intruders found her, they shot her and fled. Luckily, she will be ok, but the intruders are still out there.
  • DocFredrickson
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    Those of you who talk about one open entrance and armed guards and camera monitors, you forget that there are other ways to get into a school if you want. Where, you ask? Shooting out the windows. I won't go into recess for elementary students and how to get in and out of the school for that. Many of you think that schools are made of money and can just put in all the camera equipment and give up the room for a separate monitoring station, and pay for one or more armed guards (with guns showing)> This would upset students. I know this, as I am a school administrator for a small public school. I was raised with fire arms and know how to use them, so I would have no problem being armed and being able to protect the school and the students. The other aspect of this problem, is that the media gives to much attention to the shooters and makes them imortal. This coverage breeds copycats. The media will cry First Amendment if you try to tell them to stop the practice of glorifying the shooter(s). If you look at it, the media is more responsible for all the gun violence, because they are the ones who glorify it. One more thing, the peole who do the shootings are basically cowards, they don't want anyone to stop them until they have taken advantage of unarmed victims. Armed people stop them, they kill themselves before they have the chance to take many or any lives.

    What happens when someone bpombs a school, are we going to outlaw the sale of fertilizer and bleach? Are we going to outlaw the sales of cars, are we going to create no parking zones within six (6) blocks of a school? We need to concentrate on dealing the people who do these things, not the tools.
  • stepped_in_it
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    My thought (on some of your ideas) also! Prisons are designed to keep people in AND out. Schools are not. Think of what a prison looks like....and that's what a school would have to look like! For most schools, 1 or 2 CCW's walking around are not enough (as a school administrator, you know many campuses are very big). What's the answer....it will not be just one answer or the same for every school....
  • MongoAPillager
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    @PoliticalSpice i'm a bible thumpin,gun totin hillbilly elitorate,but my Calvin and hobbs is 2nd only to the bible,,,.the ratio seems to indicate that an armed presence seems to deter wacko's?perhaps they don,t fear death per say,but fear the in completion of their nefarious scheme due to armed resistance??
  • PoliticalSpice
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    @MongoAPillager hillbilly eiltorate? Funny you look more like tony the tiger? I agree, this is a problem, maybe if we better armed the wackos, flamethrowers or rpg's cone to mind...
  • KyleMFb
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    Boy I swear you stupid idiots are SCREAMING FOR A POLICE STATE its so sad how stupid and pathetic my fellow American fools are lets start arming dog walkers too so they can Keep our dogs safe after all their family too
  • Thegrif
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    I bet if we outlawed all guns of any type and caliber the President would still have armed security around him and his children, and why, because he knows bad people would still have guns.
    So as long as we know that there will always be bad guys, and bad guys will always have guns, then it seems logical to me that good guys should have guns and we should protect our children with them.
    I have always been of the mind set that criminals with guns are bullies, and like bullies they look for the easiest target to impose their will. The best protection is to have no weakness, at least not one as obvious as putting our defenseless children in a building 6-8 hours a day, 180 days a year.
    Times have changed folks. There are animals among us, and like most animals they hunt the weakest and most defenseless among us. At least allow us to meet their action with equal reaction.
    And, no, there are not enough police to stop all the bad people. Like what happened at that school, the time to save lives was within seconds of learning of the threat. People died trying to take a bullet for a child, bet they would have rather risked their lives by taking the threat out and trying to save multiple lives.
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