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RELIGION

AZ Bill Could Prevent Atheists Graduating High School

Would this oath violate freedom of religion?

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by Mary Noble

Senior Editor t

Image: AP

Republican lawmakers in AZ have raised eyebrows with a bill that would require high schoolers to recite this oath in order to graduate:

I, _______, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge these duties; So help me God.

The The Friendly Atheist blog explains the problem with the oath, from an atheist's perspective: "If this bill were to become a law, atheists would either not be allowed to graduate...or they would be forced to lie so they could graduate."

The bill could face legal challenges, writes Mike Sunnucks of the Phoenix Business Journal. Students might contest the bill on the grounds that it violates freedom of religion. And minority religious groups, like Muslims and Quakers, have been known to challenge state-imposed loyalty oaths such as this in the courts.

Via Patheos.com and the Pheonix Business Journal. H/T Politix user DARSB.
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Does this oath violate high schoolers' rights to freedom of religion?

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Comments (view in Forum)

  • stepped_in_it
    !
    @John_Matrix I'm an atheists! Atheists don't have concerns UNLESS a religious zealot tries to force unconstitutional and unethical requirements on them. You rarely (i said rarely, not never) see atheists protesting/chanting/forcing THEIR will on other people! You often see the religious zealots protesting/chanting/forcing THEIR will on other people!
    I find it fun to get under a zealots skin, ruffle their feathers and get them red in the face!
  • u
    EMS_Servant
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    @stepped_in_it

    Look in the Christian forums on topix, the atheists there are always trolling every to ensure a Christian discussion cannot be had. Some also consider themselves anti-theists and are basically evangellical atheists that try to beat their world view into you with a hammer.
  • View all 39 replies >
  • John_Matrix
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    @Neo_NtheMatrix

    No upholding the constitution would he the most important part. The oath itself is a contradiction by not upholding the part about separation between church and state. People need to stop forcing their own stupid shit on others.
  • u
    Hireman
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    @Neo_NtheMatrix It's actually a completely removable part as you're not pledging anything in that sentence. However, the atheists have a point, the statement is exclusional. The last sentence should be optional.
  • Denizen_Kate
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    I'm wondering why any such oath should be required of high schoolers. Are we educating or indoctrinating? Frankly, it sounds like something out of the Hitler Youth handbook.
  • View all 21 replies >
  • u
    MIDutch
    !
    Only because neo-con lawmakers keep coming up with idiotic, controversial laws. This "contrived controversy" article would NEVER have been written if the AZ bill never existed. See how simple that is?
  • o
    woodtick57
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    A clear and open violation of the first amendment is contrived? Oh yeah, you've shown you don't like the constitution...

    Most of us do.
  • PNWest
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    I Agree - What does graduating from high school have to do with upholding the constitution of the United States?
  • View all 6 replies >
  • Buzzfriendly
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    I am ok with this if the legislation that thinks this was a good idea to take an oath stating "I will pay the legal defense for that state out of my own pocket so help me god"
  • Real4WheelDrv
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    I'm pro religion on many things but this is beyond ridiculous.

    1. Will there be an ala carte option? Can I choose to swear to whatever god I might believe in? Or am I stuck worshipping the generic Christian God?

    2. I realize that there are principles of behavior, and lies are not acceptable, but come on, many Atheists already lie about hating religious folks, so what's one more lie? It's not like they believe a deity will punish them for it anyway.

    3. The gall of this government to force anyone to do this atheist or not is beyond amazing. Swearing in of elected officials and soldiers is one thing, but every day students? You don't bother with the Pledge of allegiance anymore so why this? Oh right, it's just another attention grabbing WASTE OF TIME!
  • u
    kyrebel
    !
    Omg, I'm offended. The gettysburg address...I'm offended. The bill of rights..I'm offended. The constitution..I'm offended. The McDonald's big mac..I'm offended. Wal-mart and k- mart..I'm offended. I'm offended.I'm offended.....really people, let's say it together. Ok, take a deep breath. It will be ok, it won't kill you..ok hear we go, say it slow. Ggggg oooo dddd. God, shew, that was hard. Is everyone ok, did anyone die from saying that word. Call an ambulance, there is a lib down in the back row...anybody know cpr.
  • o
    woodtick57
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    Why don't they say so help me ALLAH? how would you feel about it then? Same god...right? i bet that would knock a few people down, and it would be just as unconstitutional...
  • stepped_in_it
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    @kyrebel and wouldn't want CPR! Or in your case Ccccc Ppppp Rrrrr! Just quoting YOU......."Ggggg oooo dddd" (that was you or did someone hack your avatar)?
  • View all 11 replies >
  • Arumizy
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    Don't say the last three words if it puts you into such a hissy fit. IF you are a U.S citizen, aspiring to be a U.S citizen and unwilling to say the pledge of allegiance, a pledge to honor the constitution etc then you need to move to the USSR or something because you do not belong here.
  • stepped_in_it
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    @hankf68 You know.....the USSR in the fictional movie Red Dawn (the 1st one, not the 2nd one) where the fictional commies (whose empire has fell some 30 years ago) attack the fictional wolverines! That USSR!
  • justapirate
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    I'm one of those that feels no need to pledge to anything. This is my country and my flag. I have defended it. I will defend it. There are far too many who go through the moves but will not do the same to provide that defense and protection. I don't need a feel good maneuver to affirm my personal opinions or actions.
    There are so many that freely pledge and then do their best to see to their own wants and ta hell with what was in that pledge. They infuriate me.
    Requiring yet another pledge in order to graduate? What the crap is that? Another feel good measure and nothing more brought to you by the same people that have no issue with screwing over this country or its citizens.
    ENOUGH!
  • o
    woodtick57
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    the original pledge had no mention of any god in it. it was tacked on because of the godless commie scare, and it ruined the cadence beauty and truth of our national pledge...
  • View all 12 replies >
  • WVMountYouNear
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    Well? TRUE atheism is no faith in anything, God or otherwise. From a TRUE atheist's perspective, there is no such thing as a lie. So bottom line is, TRUE atheists don't really care what they have to say or not say. It's all just a hoop to jump through to them. To THEM, it really doesn't matter one way or the other.~

    Now "non"- atheists? lol... That's a different story. Everyone seems to care... about something... according to whatever you believe at the time. Some only want to further agendas... some are just convicted in some manner.

    But if it becomes the law of the land? What's it to the atheist? I mean really? There's not even a point to the question from their point of view. Everything is simple when you believe in nothing. No sweat either way.
  • u
    MIDutch
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    In my experience, atheists and agnostics lie a whole lot less than most religious folks do. And certain fundamentalist religious cults lie all the time. FYI I was born, baptized and raised a Christian and it was the lying and hypocrisy by so many xristians (about other people, about other Christian sects, about other religions, about science, about reality) that eventually pushed me into the agnosticism with Buddhist tendencies that I enjoy now.
  • WVMountYouNear
    !
    Sir/Mam... I was raised a nothing... eventually came to believe in God. I agree with much of what you say? But the TRUTH is? We are ALL liars, past, present and future. That's why we need a Savior.~ I would say I hope that Budda thing works out for ya? But I know it's not. Guess there's no tellin' ya otherwise, so I won't. You've heard it all before, probably from some confused individual that just couldn't make it all stack up right. Oh well.
  • hankf68
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    A lie is a lie. It doesn't have anything to do with belief's or lack of, obviously you know nothing about "true" Atheism or "real" truth...
  • WVMountYouNear
    !
    Maybe I don't understand "alot" about "real Truth"? But from an atheists point of view, it's real easy. There is NO God, thus no TRUTH, nor anything else. Check your "The Non-Religious Guide to Atheism for Dummies" book, lol. It's got one page in it, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
  • hankf68
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    @WVMountYouNear ...this is where you got your information, for real? Now I understand your post, must have come from "Posting comments on the web for Dummies" :D
  • View all 23 replies >
  • WVMountYouNear
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    Oh. Answering the question as to whether or not it's "Constitutional"? Why do people keep asking that question if not that they are just hoping one day it will change?~ Making pledges "by God" (the God of Abraham) has ALWAYS been a part of the Constitution, therefore it is 100% Constitutional, lol.~
  • u
    MIDutch
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    Except, of course, the word God is never used in the Constitution. Nor is the word Jesus or Creator. And the word Lord is merely used as part of a date reference that was common usage at that time. Perhaps you should go over your high school civics homework again before posting about what is and what is not in the Constitution.
  • o
    woodtick57
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    No, there are no pledges that include that a they were ruled unconstitutional in one of the first court cases in our nation. people MAY add it if they wish.
  • WVMountYouNear
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    As far as how blessed even atheists are in this country? If they were in the Middle East, they would be required to swear and LIVE by "Allah"... or lose their head. Over there, that's your choices. You wouldn't hear them fussing about all this over there neither, lol.~ Just a little food for thought, lol.
  • u
    Libertyiskey
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    Yeah since they have it that bad over there we should stop the complaining about us having religious freedom, is that what you were implying?

    If you were just stating a fact or thought sorry in advance for the snarky comment.
  • BrianWestley
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    "Making pledges "by God" (the God of Abraham) has ALWAYS been a part of the Constitution, therefore it is 100% Constitutional, lol."

    You couldn't be more wrong, WV; the very first legislation passed by the very first congress was the Judicial Act of 1789, which has ALWAYS had the option to affirm instead of swear, with "so help me god" OMITTED from the affirmation. And Torcaso v. Watkins held that any requirement to swear "so help me god" is unconstitutional.
  • o
    woodtick57
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    Gess these AZ school administrators never got that far in school....Some people just don't have the patriotism to learn about their own country....
  • u
    seedtick
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    @woodtick57 I do not agree with this requirement....if a student does not believe in God why would he/she swear an oath in His name? I believe that an "affirmation" would work just as good. But having them
    But I do, however, believe in "States Rights." And, I believe that any state is a sovereign entity. And, when that state deems it necessary to allow or disallow certain practices I applaud their right to do so. However, when one school district or other entity within a state makes such a decision, things must play out withing the state first. This is what makes a democtatic republic.
  • Speedieg
    !
    It is so strange to me why religious extremeist and apparently now every republican in office is trying to one up each other to force religion on everyone. Religion is a private personal matter to be shared with those of like belief. Stop your recruiting and your forced indoctrination.
  • u
    MIDutch
    !
    The No Religious Test Clause of the United States Constitution, Article VI, paragraph 3:

    The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

    If no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States, why should it be required for graduation from high school?
  • ASmith
    !
    This is not an atheist issue, this is anyone's issue. Which mythical "god" does it refer to? Those who wrote it want all children forced into the cult feces christ, but plenty of theists worship other "gods".
    ----------
    In 2000, people filed a suit to prevent forced religion in schools ("Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe") but the plaintiffs weren't atheists. They were catholics and mormons being forced into fundy christian cultism. Would it surprise you to learn that the fundy christards subjected the plaintiffs to death threats, physical assault and vandalism of their homes? So much for the myth of "loving christians".
    ----------
    Including the word "god" in an oath IS imposition of religion. Saying it isn't imposed religion is like a rapist saying "it's not rape because there's no semen" because he used a condom. The theofascists want to rape children with religion and need to be stopped.
  • u
    RobertJHarsh
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    Atheists are going to be the new gays in the 21st century. I am an atheists but I would never dare mention that at work, for I would be fired in like 20 seconds, if it took that long.
  • stepped_in_it
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    HMMM.....wondering if the sun is that hot in AZ......enough to bake the brain right out of the head? Is it really "baking" or is it steaming, considering the brains make up is mostly water? Any experiments known out there whether it would be baking versus steaming? Enquiring minds want to know.
  • o
    woodtick57
    !
    I golf there regularly with my folks, i can tell you it is baking. you get so dried up your brain desicates and then bakes....

    We love to look down to the Phoenix valley...i always mention the smog and my dad says " Yeah, but its a dry smog..."
  • Roco
    !
    It's definitely baking. Moving here from the Midwest, it took me some time to understand this phenomenon. It's a variation of being brain dead. You know like the walking dead.
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