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CORRELATION WITHOUT CAUSATION?

Banning Guns Would Lower Suicide Rate, Says NYT

Editorial argues for limiting private ownership of firearms

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by David Mark

Editor-in-Chief t

Image: AP.

Banning guns would reduce the number of suicides annually in the U.S. So suggests The New York Times in a recent editorial.

"Firearms are a far more lethal means of suicide than other options. They are fatally effective in 85 percent of cases, while pill overdoses succeed only 2 percent of the time, according to the Harvard Injury Control Research Center," The Times writes. "Nearly two-thirds of the 30,000 gun deaths each year are not the work of deranged mass shooters but the suicides of troubled individuals with easy access to firearms, often in quiet family homes."

The Times editorial is based on an article in the paper that provides human interest stories and stats to bolster the argument that taking guns out of the equation, suicides will drop. But The American Thinker's J. Robert Smith argues that theory is nonsense.

"Typical of the liberal media is the focus on symptoms rather than causes. The Times would be better off expending ink plumbing the depths of modern American society and culture. What are the factors driving more people to kill themselves? Is there something sick in the culture? Have too many Americans become unmoored from basic values and virtues - from family and faith, for instance?"

Via The New York Times and The American Thinker.

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Do you agree with the claim that banning guns would mean fewer suicides?

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Comments (view in Forum)

  • stepped_in_it
    !
    Suicide rate down......murder rate up......B & E up.....Gang activity up......law abiding citizens death rate up.......Does this sound like a trade off?(only if the guns are taken away from politician's bodyguard and the Secret Service.....HMMM, now there's a plan I can go with)
  • Calfkiller
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    @martydotcom What are the statistics regarding stabbings and blunt force trauma? In England it increased four fold. Hell an actor from the Harry Potter series was stabbed to death outside a nightclub in England, which is recognized as the most violent country in Europe. Lets give all the statistics not just the helpful ones.
  • martydotcom
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    @FollowTheMoney I don't think when it comes to suicide by guy there is much difference in the human condition no matter where you live

  • View all 38 replies >

  • DavidRobertson
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    My dad was an intentional suicide by firearm. He was lonely, depressed, smoked and drank a lot, and hid his problems from me. I didn't know how bad he was until I had to read his suicide letter and go through all of his bills. The firearm was a means to an end, but had it not been available, he would have chosen another method, as I am sure is true of most suicides.

    To think that denying a means of killing yourself would deter suicide is to be entirely ignorant of the state of mind of people willing to kill themselves.
  • mimi57
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    You are so right, it does not take a firearm to commit suicide. Overdosing on drugs and hanging are pretty common, as well as jumping from a bridge. If someone is determined to commit suicide, they will usually succeed. That said,
    people who are chronically depressed need help...our mental health system is
    in shambles, but, a person who is depressed needs a mental health professional
    as soon as possible, the problem with that is that sometimes no one is aware of the pain that person is in. Changes in mood, behaviors, sleeping too much/ little,
    lack of interest in doing things they once enjoyed are all signs of depression.
    There are some good medications out there, but it can take time to find the right
    one. Also, exercising, socializing w/ people, meditation, and even having a pet to
    care for can help. Counseling is beneficial, providing it's the right counselor.

    I am so sorry for your loss. The families of the deceased suffer so much, as suicide seems so preventable and often the family feels a lot of guilt, which
    is understandable...but it is no one's fault. Mentally healthy people don't commit
    suicide, they have the insight to know that things will get better, eventually, as
    nothing is permanent. Getting back to the topic, I do not think banning guns will
    make a difference in the rate of suicide... it's the illness that causes suicide, not
    the gun.
  • u
    Righton
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    @mimi57Your quote " There are some good medications out there" Funny how you don't mind pumping people up with drugs when there OK with "YOU".
  • mimi57
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    @Righton It's not about them being 'okay' with me. Psychotropic drugs can be
    very beneficial for people suffering from depression and they do help... They also
    have some side effects. In treating people with any drug you have to weigh the pros and cons. I am not a psychiatrist, but have worked closely with them and am
    very experienced with the meds prescribed as I often dispense them.

    To give you an example, and this is a little extreme, but maybe it can help you to
    understand... we had a resident who was schizophrenic, he heard voices and
    was so convinced he had demons in him, he stabbed himself in the stomach
    severing both his liver and intestines... he almost died and was in surgery for
    six hours. He was then put on several different meds ; Seroquel, Risperdol,
    Haldol. Zyprexa, Depakote and more. He took literally 24 pills a day. On these
    meds he was still actively hallucinating, but he was calm, pleasant when spoken
    to, and never again attempted to cut the 'demons' out. Thank God. His risk is
    high for liver failure, cancer, and other serious side effects, which will most
    certainly shorten his life, but, is it better than him severing vital organs? Yes.

    This is not about 'me'. This is about helping people who are suffering from mental illness. Depression is something we all get from time to time, as sometimes life
    can be depressing, but a depression that worsens is dangerous, and the person
    needs professional help and hopefully has family and spiritual help as well. You
    are very misguided when saying it is 'okay' with me. I'm not the doctor, and some
    meds are very helpful, as long as they are monitored and the patient is receiving
    counseling, by a caring and understanding therapist.* My thoughts are with David
    Robertson, and the tragedy of him losing his father.*

  • mimi57
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    @Righton I should have mentioned that anti-depressants are used to treat more
    moderate cases of depression, and there are several that work pretty well, but the
    patient still needs therapy. It helps to be involved in activities and having friends and family support, and spirituality has a very positive effect on many people.

  • View all 10 replies >

  • PNWest
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    Certainly if there were no guns there would be less successful suicides. Other ways don't work as well. People would fail more often. But the real tragedy with guns is the number of gun related deaths. There have been at least 1862 gun related deaths since the Newtown massacre. You can keep track of them here: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politi... Keep on exercising your 2nd amendment rights gun nuts. And I'll keep exercising my first amendment right to point out how the bodies keep piling up.
  • DavidRobertson
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    1) read my post. You can't stop suicide by denying access to the means t

    2) driving a car at 80MPH into a bridge base, oak tree, or similar obstacle is an easy way to kill yourself in all 50 states and DC.

    3) most
  • DavidRobertson
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    ! 1) read my post. You can't stop suicide by denying access to the means to do so.

    2) driving a car at 80MPH into a bridge base, oak tree, or similar obstacle is an easy way to kill yourself in all 50 states and DC.

    3) most murders with guns are committed by young black thugs involved in the drug trade, against other young black thugs. We need to change our drug laws.
  • PNWest
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    @DavidRobertson I had read your post and was going to reply to it. I am sorry about your father's suicide. It must have been terrible to deal with the aftermath. The fact remains though that guns are 85% effective in committing suicide as opposed to other methods - the article claims only a 2% success rate for pills. Had your father used pills instead of a gun perhaps he would have survived. Again my sympathies.
  • DavidRobertson
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    @PNWest

    Thank you. I appreciate the sympathy.

    The point I was trying to make that I feel you are missing is that those intent upon dying, such as my father, will not be deterred by a lack of availability of their preferred means. They will try again with another method until they succeed.

    Another factor to keep in mind is that many "attempted" suicides are failures because the subjects are crying out for help, and don't really want to die.
  • PNWest
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    @DavidRobertson Sometimes people attempt to commit suicide, fail and get help. Quite often they'll find a away to deal with the problems that drove them to the attempt. Every case is different.

  • View all 13 replies >

  • Heavy-Fed
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    Is there a rational reason why I should not be able to protect myself or my family against being murdered? Is there a rational reason why you think suicide by gun is cheaper than an overdose... or jumping off a building... or driving your car head on into an 18 wheeler?
    People that want to kill themselves will find a way.
  • Heavy-Fed
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    Besides... if you want to kill yourself... the last thing you are going to worry about is how much it's going to cost you.
  • stepped_in_it
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    Ya know Darsb.....I consider myself a (somewhat) sane person. I'd have no problem giving up my 2 "pea shooters". Unlike some, I'm not a gun nut. But, until our LEO's and government can absolutely unarm the criminal element, I will NOT give up my 2 puny "pea shooters". It's a crime to hear our so-called police forces say that they cannot protect us, that their main job seems to be giving out citations to increase their cities/counties coffers. In Neo's word.....that makes me sad, very sad!

  • View all 17 replies >

  • Neo_NtheMatrix
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    Why is the left so intent on disarming hardworking law abiding citizens? This is a question that needs to be asked. Nothing the obama regime has proposed has any ability to prevent or even restrict criminals from getting guns. No, what obama wants to do is punish a grandfather who wants to give his grandson a gun that's been in the family for generations as a gift. It is time we stand up and be loud and rancorous, just like during the health scare debates. We need to let obama and his regime know that the 2nd Amendment will not be repealed on our watch.
  • Zazziness
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    No one is talking about repealing the 2nd Amendment. Know what helps dialog? If people don't get carried away with their own hyperbole.
  • o
    NTBFW
    !
    @Zazziness did you not see the post yesterday? About Mo dems wanting to confiscate guns. I have heard more tha one legislator calling for a ban on guns. So stop saying that no one is talking about violating the second amendment. And without people like me. Many people like me they would take our guns. You are in denial if you think that there are those that are trying to take it away.
  • o
    NTBFW
    !
    @NTBFW if you think that there are not people trying to take our guns away. Excuse the typo I am not at 100% yet.
  • stepped_in_it
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    A little "apple to apple" comparison of similar population density of suicide rates:
    USA = 12.0 per 100,000 people (guns available)
    UK = 11.8 per 100,000 people (guns banned)
    HMM.......see a big difference (neither do I)

  • View all 10 replies >

  • zachsquatch
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    Exactly! This is what many fought for. They wanted these people with clear signs of mental instability to be integrated into our society and now they're seeing the outcome of such. This problem will not be addressed and diversions will be put in place to prevent the true issue from coming up. Some people do not belong in society and we have neglected this important fact for years. It is time that we take a serious look into asylums for these people.
  • o
    SomethinsFishy
    !
    Twice the number of people commit suicide without guns than with. That's not even counting the tens of thousands who die of illegal drug AND legal drug overdoses, alcohol intoxication; poisoning-deliberate and accidental, etc. These freakers are really reaching to try and ban guns. Banning cars would also eliminate over 38,000 deaths a year; banning swimming would save over 3,800 each year; 5,600+ pedestrians are killed and 70,000 are injured each year: Banning motor vehicles would save 42,000+ deaths each year!!! Not going to surgeons and other doctors would save 195,000 deaths a year from medical misadventures- would YOU want to stop going to doctors or be in favor of banning the medical profession because of those 195,000 deaths each year? Stop grasping at straws, you bunch of pinheads. See what's happened in countries that have banned guns altogether. Their violent crime rate has soared past that of the US. Firearm deaths might be down, but homicide rates are way up there because burglars and armed robbers KNOW they'll be going up against unarmed homeowners and store owners/clerks. Look for the report "Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and Wales" There's a reason we keep getting all of these English refugees here like Piers Morgan, Katty Kay, and whole slew of other unknown folks. http://assaultweaponsbanof2013.blogspot.com
  • zeke
    !
    Pinheads like Piers Morgan and Katty Kay just do'nt get it no one gives a damn what they think unless your an anti gun nut! Being admitted to a hospital has become one of the most dangerous things you will ever have to face in your lifetime. Check it out for your self; study: half of infection deaths linked directly to hospital care, hospital infection deaths in focus- cbs news, http:// mentalhealth.gov/suicideprevention/suicidefac... No guns involved here just sloppy care by heath care workers and mentally ill patients not getting the help they need!
  • lawnmowrman
    !
    Give up our 2nd Amendment rights and expect people not to find other ways to achieve their goal. Here in the Southeast, a Bromeliad species unknown, is commonly seen hanging from deciduous trees. Gelsemium sempervirens is common in the summer.
  • u
    commonsense51
    !
    There you have it folks. When ever some Democrat tells you they don't want to take your guns, you just heard the truth from the Liberals themselves. They do want to take our guns and will use any lame statistic to make it happen. They are very very dangerous control fanatics. What you must ask yourself is why? Why do they want to take our guns? The ludicrous excuses of guns being used to kill people is a complete joke when there are many far more dangerous ways that we all die. Cars for one? The odds of dying in a car accident from drunk drivers or speeding drivers is a thousand times more likely. So again I ask why the fixation with guns? Most Conservatives know why.... it is because big Government does not want an armed public when they start controlling our lives even more than they already do. To force Government control of our lives they need a docile public with no means to protect ourselves.
  • o
    NTBFW
    !
    We have people here that say no one wants to take away our guns. Despite the fact there are legislators writing bills to do that very thing.
  • u
    Slowmo
    !
    Another argument based on logic which suggests a belief that an inanimate object influences people. This same logic would also suggest that criminals would actually be victims.
  • zachsquatch
    !
    As long as there is rope, bleach, razor blades, I don't see the suicide rate going down. There is no proof they can provide for this because it's never happened, nor will a ban happen. This is scrapping the bottom of the barrel (no pun intended). If someone is bound and determined to kill themselves, they'll do it. They make these unfounded correlations and hope that their sheep will follow, and they usually do and state their claim as fact. This would be like saying that banning ice cream would lower the homicide rate.
  • FollowTheMoney
    !
    Fewer cowards would make for fewer suicides. Better parenting would lower suicides. Banning guns....I think not. It seams like the gun banning nuts have a bunch of miscellaneous keys and keep trying every one of them until one fits the lock. They refuse to admit they're knocking on the wrong door.
  • miketost
    !
    Not being born will stop suicide 100%.So now all of Americas problems can be stopped by banning guns?Those that oppose gun ownership will stop at nothing to justify their cause.Perhaps if they really cared about humanity and suicide,they would donate their time at a suicide prevention center.
  • RedFloppyShoes
    !
    Sorry, but those who want to commit suicide will find a way to do so. Firearms are #1 on the list, sure, but banning them means that hanging and poisoning rates will skyrocket, as firearms, hanging and poisoning account for 90% of all suicides in the USA
  • miketost
    !
    Suicide by prescription meds,jumping from roofs,ropes,knifes,automobiles ,walking in front of a truck,cyanide,drano,where do you stop banning?Suicide is a mental issue just like the fools that use guns to kill for no justifiable reason.Focus on the persons reason to end their lives not the tool.
  • miketost
    !
    Iam truely sorry for your loss .One must also think of the innocent lives saved by guns wether police or civilian action.Your loss is a tragedy.
  • AlexMIA
    !
    Only 2 percent of pill popping suicide attempts die because pill poppers aren't really trying to commit suicide, they are really crying for help, most of the time they tell someone they took the pills right after taking them. A person committed to killing themselves would find more effective means guns or not. As a rule, I can't stand anything that has NY in it. I can't stand the left and all their pushiness!
  • TeamAmerica
    !
    Japan has over 30,000 suicides a year and handguns are banned while rifle ownership is very tightly controlled. People in Japan kill themselves by jumping in front of trains, leaping off high places, hanging, or overdosing on medication. Keep drinking that liberal Kool-Aid that tells you banning guns would have an affect on the suicide rate here in the US.
  • stepped_in_it
    !
    Well written! people....it's the P E O P L E! Population density is the reason, not the gun! Overcrowding causes these pressures......jeez louise!
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