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  • #13
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    You told me all I needed to know when you wrote he is from California and his district all a large number of Hispanics. It is not undocumented it is ILLEGAL ALIENS.
  • #207
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    Does it make you feel better to label all lawbreakers, I.e., illegal corporate polluters, illegal mortgage brokers, illegal bankers, illegal auto mechanics, etc., or are you just hung up on immigrants?
  • #248
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    @BobFromDist9 - discuss away. You haven't added anything to the conversation yet, other than your obvious bias.
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  • #11
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    What happened to citizenship? When did citizenship turn into residency? This country has turned into a place where by simply picking a place to reside and squatting there affords aliens as many rights or more rights than legal citizens all to benefit a political agenda.
  • #40
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    Not true, the proposed legislation would set up a process that takes 13 years, requires paying fines, and passing background checks (paid for by the applicant). That is a lot more than a squatter. Further many of these people already pay taxes and would continue to do so - both income and property (and of course the others, like sales tax).

    The Democratic immigration proposal is better than anything proposed by the right, more fair, more constructive, more beneficial TO THE NATION.

    While we should allow all immigrants who seek to become citizens to serve in our military - providing they pass the standards, including criminal check, then great -- we already let people from a variety of other countries earn their citizenship that way.

    One of the problems with Mexico and other sources of undocumented immigrants is that they can't go through proper application, because their own countries make it difficult - if not impossible - to get the necessary papers they need THERE (like birth certificate, passport, etc.). The liberals address that reality; conservatives don't -- and conservatives consistently advocate policies that hurt our economy.
  • #53
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    @DeeGee excuses, excuses, excuses the reality is their is already a fair process called legal migration. On a further note you talk about fines as penalties, how much. They will never admitt to how long they have been here, how many times they have used our roads, schools hospitals etc. the likely hood of your fines is that they won't cover a fraction of the damage these people have caused.
  • #54
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    @Arumizy No excuses, just dealing constructively with the reality -- more constructive than the radical right which is only interested in being punitive, even if that means cutting off our national noses to spite our face.

    Show your documentation for that damage, and then balance it against the benefits -- and we have and DO receive huge economic benefits.

    You got nuthin' to demonstrate an inadequacy of fines and fees, but their intent is to defray the costs of the citizenship process, not offset anything else. Considering what we spend on border security that we might not have to spend in future, that is a great bang for the taxpayer buck.
  • #60
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    @DeeGee you call us the radical right only because your logic and point is faulty.
    11,000,000 illegals and we have 7 or 8 milk unemployed. The damages from them holding jobs Americans should have is already astronomical. Their use of our ERs for everything incalculably high and so forth. The reality is they are a burden on our health and education systems and much more. You can be an apologist and live in make believe land if you wish.
  • #72
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    @Arumizy 1. NOT 11 million undocumented immigrants. Nor have you shown by WRONG raw numbers that this contributes to the unemployment figures.

    2. Demonstrate a factual source that undocumented immigrants ARE taking jobs that American citizens want to take. Quite the opposite:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/14/...

    One of the reasons that it IS a good thing to enact immigration reform is precisely to keep these workers from being exploited -- and that in turn benefits ALL labor.

    3. Given the potential benefits to our economy, which outweigh ER care, it is not reasonable to begrudge that care. Many if not most pay taxes that go towards those costs. But by taking proactive and constructive action in immigration reform, we can drastically reduce those costs, improve the available care, and better track expenditures and expenses.

    4. They are not a 'burden' on our health and education systems; quite the opposite; our population is declining. We are headed towards towards too few people in the U.S., not too many. Investment in the health and education of our population is a better expenditure of our tax dollars in terms of actual return and cost/benefits than blowing more money on our military part of the budget. And there too, we should be spending more on people (which includes a huge hispanic demographic) and less on junk that often even the Pentagon does not want.

    I live in the land of hard facts and rigorous bottom line. You live in the land of it-feels-good-to-hate-people/c rackpot conspiracy theories/ and other failed right wing thinking.
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  • #124
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    Why not? To serve in the military as a means to become a citizen when the person did not come to this country of his or her own volition. Their parents brought them here as minors. They had no choice in the matter. I believe serving a stint in the military to become a citizen sounds like a good idea, but it cannot be the only means afforded to young adults brought to this country as children. Not everyone can perform what is necessary to serve. There needs to be other means to citizenship. I do not consider children and young adults brought here as children as being lawbreakers. They had no choice. They only know this country. It's not right to consider them illegals. Let them become citizens and part of the only country they know. My ex's fourth and current wife is from Brazil. That she married an officer in the military gave her citizenship. Their baby is a born American citizen, further solidifying her status. She first came to the US on a student Visa and that is how they met. I'm sure that her family is one of the richest in Brazil didn't hurt. Why should she so easily get citizenship in a very short time when these young people brought here as children are having to fight to become citizens of the only country they know?
  • #17
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    If you disregard the 'hook' used for the title, this article contains a LOT of useful information and interesting video to go along with it. The writer used an 'interest-generating statement' to draw attention to information that might be otherwise missed with a more 'boring' title. Worth reading and watching. www.lookintoit.org/DHS-Preparing-For-7-Year-W... There's also the matter that by HOARDING ammunition, greater prices are then paid for the scarce ammo. Greater prices mean MORE MONEY PUMPED INTO THE ECONOMY AND HIGHER TAXES COLLECTED BY THE GOVERNMENT. It's also right along with what USDoJ, National Institute of Justice Director Greg Ridgeway, PhD, suggested on Page 4, of his Summary of Select Firearm Violence Prevention Strategies. The strategy 1) reduces ammunition available to the citizenry and according to USDoJ/NIJ thinking, what 'trickles down' to criminals 2) pumps more money into the economy due to supply and demand and 3) generates more tax revenues due to the higher prices paid for the item(s). It's win-win for the gun control crowd in the federal government.

    @BravoJuliet @fscott777 @Slayer98_l @BobSmith @kirbstomp1 @Kimber_TLE @Ahsum99ss @JeffreyKnee @AtheistChild @AlexMIA @Canoochee @Arumizy @Marine1 @Vance1
  • #105
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    @dances-weebles Have you read the article?

    It was saying how it's impossible to make lead for bullets in this country nowadays because of the EPA - another reason to abolish the agency
  • #139
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    @dances-weebles Don't you know? Anything the EPA does is bad, including protecting people from lead poisoning...
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  • #50
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    Military service in the U.S. armed forces has always been a fast track to citizenship. It is an honorable thing to do...for both our nation and the immigrant. But, allowing an illegal alien to join is unthinkable. A person must first have legal status before joining. To get that illegal aliens must first undergo extensive background checks. Then satisfy our immigration's legal process.
    in 1959 I went through USMC boot camp with two such people. One was a Russian who was brought here as a teenager. The other was a Mexican who came legally. They were both legally here and joined as a way to accelerate the citizenship process. I never saw the Russian after boot camp, he went into some MOS to use his language skills. About three years later I ran across the Mexican at Camp Pendleton, CA. I was a radio telegraph operator and he was a wire stringer. He was apparently a good Marine and undoubtedly went on the be a good citizen.
  • #14
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    I have mixed feelings about this, and I'd have to know a whole lot more about it to decide one way or the other. But two things are very clear: In the past THOUSANDS of young men have been given the choice between enlisting in the US Military or going to jail for relatively minor criminal offenses. So that argument about 'weeding out those who knowingly do not abide by the law' rings a little hollow. The other thing is that a great number of illegal immigrant's children are doing exactly that right now, i.e. serving in the military, and gaining legal residence through that service and being expedited through the citizenship process. Haven't read any studies about how both of these situations have worked out over the years. I myself was a LEGAL resident alien when I signed up for the US Army. I was no. 14 on the Draft Lottery, so they would have gotten to me one way or the other. My citizenship process was expedited and I got my citizenship while still serving in the US Army in 1972.
  • #244
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    " I myself was a LEGAL resident alien when I signed up for the US Army. I was no. 14 on the Draft Lottery, so they would have gotten to me one way or the other."

    As a non-citizen you did not have to serve. However, you would also never have gotten citizenship.

    " My citizenship process was expedited and I got my citizenship while still serving in the US Army in 1972. "

    I served with an Australian. Never asked about whether he was going for citizenship. Now I wonder.
  • #251
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    Man, you really need to get your facts straight before you post. What part of I HAD TO REGISTER FOR THE DRAFT AS SOON AS I TURNED 18 (LIKE EVERYONE ELSE CITIZEN OR NOT) AND WAS NO. 14 IN THE DRAFT LOTTERY DID YOU NOT GET? IF I HAD DODGED THE DRAFT AND NOT SERVED, I PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE GOTTEN MY CITIZENSHIP AS QUICKLY, BUT GIVEN THE FACT FREAKING DRAFT DODGERS WERE GIVEN AMNESTY AFTER LEAVING FOR CANADA AND LIVING THERE FOR MANY YEARS, YOU ARE PROBABLY WRONG THERE TOO. Capitals for emphasis. Don't you people ever get tired of spewing nonsense?
  • #271
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    @GedankPol
    Actually, a bit later, I think "non-draft-registerers " (clunky hyphenated word) were pardoned, weren't they? Plenty of kids didn't Register after the Vietnam War ended and stayed here in the States. I think it was a couple years later than when you served. I think it was Agnew who issued a blanket pardon to any American who hadn't registered at 18 as directed, after Nixon rsigned.
  • #361
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    @Poltal An idea which has merit. In fact military service should be mandatory for all aged 18 to 25 who are unemployed for 6 months or more.

    There is no meaning to Illegals swearing to defend the Constitution of a nation not their own. They have already displayed a willingness NOT to abide by the laws of this land by entering the country illegally.
  • #382
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    @Poltal Thank you for your service.

    I am not comfortable with illegal immigrants in the armed forces. American citizens regardless of religious affiliation I am less so. I was not even aware illegals could serve in our Military.
  • #386
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    @Canoochee Hey Thanks!

    You do not need to be an American, or even live in America to serve in the US military. I have served with many Canadians, and more than a couple Mexicans, and one Brit in the US military.

    Of course, these guys didnt identify themselves as Illegals, they identified as mexican nationals when they signed up. I knew they were illegal because soldiers share everything with eachothers
  • #289
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    Why do we want people in our Military who are only there to get Citizenship and have no loyalties to America ? Vietnam Vets had to deal with people who were drafted and didn't want to be there and from Desert Storm to present our Military has dealt with the ones who only joined the military to get a college education and now this ?(among other problems)Why don't we ever learn from past problems ? Won't there be a language barrier ? When I was in there was only one language spoken and written, has this changed in today's military ?
  • #140
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    I oppose this, I firmly believe current immigration laws must be enforced. I am a registered Independent, Democratic leaning. I also believe in enforcing immigration laws against employers and illegals themselves.
  • #224
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    not just that but the moratorium on all immigration of any sort till the implementation of the human rights treaty in full force against this government and fore the restitution of the recent past crimes against humanity
  • #274
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    @chris532008
    What.....you don't know that America has a monopoly card that says "Avoid all human rights abuses charges and Get Out of Jail Free"? Pass Go and collect $200.
  • #8
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    ║give an opportunity for qualified undocumented immigrants

    Left entirely to the imagination of the reader: the definition of "qualified undocumented immigrants."

    So I did something I like to call a "Google Search" and found the bill, where we read:

    __________
    (D) An alien who was unlawfully present in the United States on December 31, 2011, who has been continuously present in the United States since that date, who was younger than 15 years of age on the date the alien initially entered the United States, and who, disregarding such unlawful status, is otherwise eligible for original enlistment in a regular component of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard under section 505(a) of this title and regulations issued to implement such section.
    __________

    There. Fixed!

    http://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/...
  • #10
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    So now we need to know:
    ║ otherwise eligible for original enlistment

    From Army.mil we read about what foreign nationals might need to meet:
    ║Applicants must be between 17 and 35; meet the mental, moral,
    ║and physical standards for enlistment; AND MUST SPEAK, READ
    ║AND WRITE ENGLISH FLUENTLY.

    So now we have a better picture of who we're considering to become members of our military, and our country.
  • #21
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    @Kimber_TLE there shouldn't be any illegal in government period. Remove them all and send then home. If they have so little respect for our laws and our sovereignty then there is little chance they ever will
  • #24
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    @Arumizy And why are you directing your comment to me? All I did was clarify who is being considered, since the author of the article neglected to provide the essential information. I didn't make a pro or con statement.
  • #29
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    @Arumizy "Remove them all and send then home."
    I'd bet that the cost of having them serve terms in the military is significantly less than "sending them home" or even to imprison them. I dislike those who break laws as well, but reality is they are here. The cost to send home such a large population or imprison them would be monumental at best and our government isn't known for being frugal.
    I could see this as a much more cost effective way to deal with a burdensome problem. It also would provide desperately needed manpower since our elected officials think we should involve ourselves in every skirmish across the globe.
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  • #195
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    I hear people saying it is illegal what obama is doing so I dont understand why we are allowing him to break the law, why are the American people rising up protesting, I know I one of those people but it takes more than a 66 yr old woman to riseup, & besides once I rise up I cant stay up on my Feet to long before I rise down lol,
  • #179
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    Your comment, fscott777, puts all Californians into a box. Very neat, indeed. However, California is not the land of dumb people. So, please leave your slurs aside, as they are reflections of your own character more than those you criticize. California has lead the nation in many ways, ways which you, unbeknownst to you, ever agree with. But, enough of that.

    It is so simple to cast it all in a single phrase: illegal aliens. And, I know it is common knowledge, but all of us are illegal aliens in the same sense you say of undocumented people. We came here and decided we would document people because we believed that Native Americans were savages and had no idea, much less right, to be involved in what people would come here and how. One of the things that is so hard to grasp by everyone is this: people will come to where they can make enough for them and their families to survive. NAFTA puts pressure on this indirectly, but oh so really. When we get that we are actually, truly, one human family more than any artificial boundaries created by our imperialistic ideas of things, we may start to heal this planet and the pain in our humanity. We can't, fscott777, survive as a species and planet by simply keeping our minds and hearts set on the smaller, myopic picture. We must enlarge and include. If we can, even you, my friend, will be happy we did.
  • #223
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    but the migration of the people south of the border with the belief of having 8 to 10 children per family will do the same here and are moving as they have outgrown the land in which they were that will no heal the planet , but is the exact thing that will destroy the planet, it is the overpopulation that is the polution problem that we have, china outside its many problems and japan and korea, do know that problem and have addressed it, the us has not and it is the undoin of thie land
  • #252
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    @chris532008
    You're pissed, Chris, and rightfully so. But, don't oversimplify things. There is plenty of room left in Mexico. It's little people getting caught up on the politics of their location, looking for a way to live. They don't have 8 to 10 children, btw: some may, but then so do some families here. But, yes, we are pretty much ostriches* when it comes to addressing our polution and many other problems.
    * sticking our heads in the hole in the ground
  • #272
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    @chris532008
    It is far more likely illegal folks have "8-10 children" because they are Catholic, rather than because they are illegal. I don't know the exact % of illegals coming here from the Southern border that are Catholic, but it seems to be the predominant Religion.
  • #246
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    The Romans did that, it contributed to their fall.

    Judges would do that, for minor offenders. Major offenders who did get in the military often didn't pay off to well.
  • #273
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    I seem to remember that LEAD POISONING did in a lot of Romans...as many of their cups and plates and ewers were made from lead.....
  • #42
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    First they jump the fence to get here now we will reward them with serving in the armed forces. The repukes must be desperate for votes. And how do we know that they will not turn on us if we have to fight against some of their own. Remember the muslim who threw a grenade into the tent of other American soldiers to get even with us. WTF!!!!!!!!!!
    I did not leave the republican party, they left me.
  • #87
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    it doesn't matter at all.

    and if the republican party had even a modicum of intelligence they'd all gravitate toward the middle... the same goes for democrats. the country needs common sense moderates, not extremists on either side of the isle.
  • #142
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    @dances-weebles Democrats are just Republican lite, they crossed 'the middle' around 1981 and haven't done anything progressive since LBJ and before him, FDR.
  • #149
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    We do not need moderates, they always cave into what the opposition wants. The whole ideal of a moderate is to get along and not rock the boat. We need people who will just do what they promise and uphold the constitution, that's all. No more cave ins.
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  • #31
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    Seems like a pretty logical way to deal with a highly burdensome problem of criminals AND economical resource.
    The cost to send these people back home would be astronomical as would imprisonment. That is fact.
    This would also give our military much needed manpower since our elected officials think we should be involved in every skirmish across the globe.
    The only problem I would have is that increased military spending would likely continue or increase its flow into the pockets of Defense Contractors. These vermin would destroy something positive to make a buck.
  • #45
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    If we just treated them as the invaders they are that would give the military target practice and be a much cheaper alternative, too.
  • #70
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    @justapirate Our military isn't defending our borders like they 'should'. No no! They are spread thin across the world fighting in very little brush war.
  • #92
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    @Fishbone345 defending our borders only means protecing the nation from attack by a foreign military. not keeping working people out... or in.
  • #111
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    @dances-weebles Nope. You can tell you didn't serve, else you might know what the military oath says.
    "I,(NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;"
    It says "All Enemies", it doesn't say anything in there about only fighting foreign militaries.
  • #117
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    @Fishbone345 6 years in the u.s. navy... 3.5 of which were spent in country vietnam. the fact is that people wanting to enter the u.s. to work aren't any sort of enemy... either foreign or domestic.
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  • #9
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    Let's allow people who have no respect for our laws and our way of life defend our country! I mean, after all, they'll only help their jihadi friends, because Islamists come illegally through the Southern Border.
  • #15
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    Wouldn't you say our ancestors were illegal aliens just looking for a better life? The only difference is the hispanics are trying to conform to our society whereas our ancestors just killed off all the Native Americans....and there are more muslims traveling into our country legally by plane than by border hopping. Lets get real.
  • #16
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    @kirbstomp1 our ancestors migrated here legally, these Hispanics have said the hell with your laws I'll do what I want
  • #27
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    @Arumizy - lol, its legal why? Because England said it was? Haha. Im pretty sure the Native Americans had laws against encroaching on one anothers territory. Look I've noticed you tend to make up history for it to fit your beliefs, that doesn't make it the truth. Have you ever noticed just because something is a law in the UN doesn't mean we follow it. Therefore its illegal in their eyes and legal in our eyes. To encroach on someones territory and not assimilate, then kill them is wrong. I don't care how you try to twist it buddy.
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  • #6
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    Illegal aliens. They are not immigrants. If they are willing to fight and defend this country, I might consider it, but in the other hand, they are already committing a crime and the military isn't letting in criminals. I wouldn't give them citizenship, but legal documents to stay maybe.
  • #5
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    A percentage could be useful and provide honorable service, but another percentage could end up being flakey if they are only doing it out of self interest. I would be a little concerned about awall's during war time and with those who may not have a real interest in upholding the constitution.
  • #4
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    Yea, just what we need...an army of another nationality fighting for us. Somehow I don't see this thing working out all that well.
  • #46
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    So clearly Bravo Juliet, you are unaware that we already allow people from foreign countries to gain citizenship (including retaining dual citizenship) by enlisting in our armed forces? We've been doing it for decades, letting people from all over the world serve, and then become full citizens. They can enlist at any embassy or consulate, and at some of our foreign military bases.

    The people we are talking about here already have a loyalty and dedication to this country, which is more than can be said is clear about other foreign nationals we allow to enlist and to gain citizenship (sometimes maintaining dual citizenship).

    Maybe you should do a little fact checking before you opine on the success or failure of something.
  • #47
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    @Arumizy It has worked for us since at least post WW II.

    We let foreigners enlist all the time, and allow them to gain citizenship afterwards because of their service.

    It's not like there are all that many loyal and patriotic Americans are beating down the doors to our recruitment centers.
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