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  • #10
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    "Ayn Rand Institute"

    ...and I didn't need to read further.

    But I did. And was not surprised.

    "Finally, opponents of Obamacare have to offer an inspiring moral alternative: a fully free market..."

    And everyone can win the lottery at the same time.
  • #34
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    @Bleeding_Blue
    >>>These Ayn Rand weirdos, don't have the first clue about the real "free market".<<<

    Or about the lunatic Ayn Rand. It is as bad as quoting Henry Thoreau who tried to live isolated from society and found he couldn't and became dependent on others for his very existence.
  • #83
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    @NormalFlora Perhaps we should pursue this in a method you suggested before of addressing the message instead of the messenger
  • #108
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    What exactly are your arguments against the free market?

    Here's mine for it: every man has a right to his life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of his happiness. That means he should be allowed to do what he wants so long as he does not violate the rights of other. That means that no man has the right to take anything of his without his consent.

    If we had a truly free market in healthcare, I assert that the following would happen:
    - Prices would drop (as they always do in an unregulated, free market)
    - Choices would increase
    - Technology would explode. In 10 to 20 years, healthcare would be so different that we wouldn't be able to recognize it.(Kind of like today’s internet would be unfathomable to somebody 20 years ago.)
    - People would literally live longer.

    The consequences of Obamacare are disastrous; it’s a slew of laws and mandates piled onto an already struggling welfare state that has over 100 TRILLION dollars in unfunded liabilities. But most of all, it’s immoral. It’s wrong to take money by force from some people and give it to others.
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  • #43
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    It takes a long time to understand the actual costs of programs like Social Security, Medicare. Medicaid, and Obamacare. Without Obamacare the other programs have unfunded liabilities of over $100Trillion which exceeds the NET WORTH of the country. The real question is how long can this country continue in its current form.
    My guess is not long.
  • #13
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    First: It will be very difficult to remove 24 million (& growing) from a law that protects those with "Pre-Existing Conditions" and the coverage for children up until 26 years of age on their parents plan.

    Second: Before the ACA was implemented I was really worried about losing my employer coverage...like everyone said I would. Our company sent out a letter telling us nothing would change and nothing has changed. My medical deduction for coverage has and continues to be deducted every month; I have the same doctors with options to change if and when I feel like it, along with dental.

    Third: My son (who wasn't very happy about this either) registered with the ACA because he just passed parental coverage; he is very single so it works for him. He is self-employed and picked an excellent plan (he thought that was pretty cool), and now doesn't even think about it.

    Once you have millions of people covered and adjusted this will be a "political" stick of TNT to try and take it away.
  • #35
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    Also, I would add that now that people aren't shackled to jobs they hate, just to keep their health coverage, we will have a much happier, more mobile, and more productive workforce. They can now work where they want and even move to a new state to find a better job.
  • #67
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    @NormalFlora hmm, with 50% of the college grads from 2 years ago still unable to find jobs, and around 50 million Americans on food stamps, happier is not the word I would use, but hey, thats just me.
  • #77
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    @Thegrif If you saw the resumes, CVs, and the interview fails that I saw during my 7 years at a major teaching hospital, you would know that it's not the education that's holding them back, it's their inattention to detail and their crappy attitude. I had a 4th year med student demand that we interrupt the interview so that she could go outside and smoke. We had another one wear what I would describe as a "clubbing skirt" and spike heels to the interview. It was a butt-hugging skirt with a hem 4inches below her crotch, when she was standing! We had men use text messaging shorthand on their cover letters. So don't blame education.
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  • #12
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    It's here to stay in one form or another. Parts of it are unconstitutional and parts of it are unworkable and will have to be fixed, but it's here to stay.

    The Social Security Act of 1935 had some problems to be worked out too.....but that entire act was only 57 pages long and it's still not fixed.
  • #127
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    Yes, but the Social Security Act of 1935 was bi-partisan. The ACA was not. Since the Republicans don't have a stake in it's success, they will continue to whittle it down.

    Don't get me wrong. Parts of ACA are very good. However, the concept is flawed. The options are to either revert to some kind of non-mandatory private health insurance with less government control or move to a single payer system, which would bankrupt the country and provide worse health care and less freedom for Americans.
  • #129
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    @BakersfieldBob
    My point being, that if a 57 page act that passed with bipartisan support still needs fixing after almost 80 years how long will it take to fix the ACA? An act of 961 pages and containing over 700 directives for further regulation? No one even knows everything in it yet. It's a monstrosity that will be causing problems for decades. I hate it, but I think we are stuck with most of it. I hope the GOP does continue to whittle it down...using chainsaws.
  • #27
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    The author states...."Once the Social Security Administration started dispensing handouts in 1940, opposition to the program virtually evaporated"...I doubt many conservatives would even call SS checks handouts...The author is from the Ayn Rand Institute....which basically feels that any type of compassion is a sign of weakness...ACA still may need some changes but it is here to stay...and hopefully it will one day evolve into a single-payer health care system
  • #114
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    "I doubt many conservatives would even call SS checks handouts"... I have to agree with you there. However, it is messed up. It's sad that in 5 years I have matched 50 percent of the amount I'll receive from SSI I with my 401 K at a fraction of the amount that was "invested." That is why I'm currently against anything "run" by the government. Sorry but they suck and are inept!
  • #144
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    The good news is: Obozocare is economically unsustainable. Wave bye-bye![The question is: What will go bye-bye first? The whole economy, or Obozocare?]

    That, coupled with the fact that most Americans oppose it and the fact that the fools who signed-up for it are seeing they are getting shafted (the ones who actually are productive members of society, who have to pay their own premium) will guarantee that whoever repeals the idiotic law, will be an instant hero.

    And no matter what they do, I will NEVER participate in Obozocare- which the Janitor-in-Chief can take and stick up his big black donkey!
  • #107
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    I will agree that the health care system needed an overhaul. It was pricing itself out of the market. It does little good to have the world's best health care delivery system if a significant number of people can't access it because of its cost.

    Nevertheless one can't get around the fact that the ACA is bad legislation. It's too expensive, it's too cumbersome, it doesn't cover everybody, and there is stuff in it we haven't found yet. Parts of it may survive, but I think the bulk of it will wind up in the ash can of history.
  • #142
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    Best? by what standard? We pay more than Japan yet they visit the doctor more often take more tests, live longer and have a lower infant mortality rate than us. Even Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than the US. We have the best healthcare in the world for the top few percentile but if your just a regular guy then that is not true on any level.
  • #147
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    @Rider

    You are bringing of the cost of the US's health care delivery system. That is a good point, however, you can't get around the fact that the US has the best delivery system.
  • #167
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    @Rider

    What I see coming is a shortage of doctors. It takes around 10 years before a doctor's training is finished. He wants to retire at a reasonable age too. That makes for a short career. This is disuade people from going into that field.
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  • #105
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    I'm afraid I must agree w/ this article, Obamacare is likely here to stay...at least in the short term. But there is a growing number of people and articles on the internet that are correctly arguing against the welfare state on moral grounds...so who knows what the future holds?
  • #91
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    I have the right to choose! And will not pay for maternity care because I am male! There are other issues as well, but proving a male can not give birth is a great point! Obama care is a tax hiking joke! I asked why I need maternity coverage! My response was my girlfriend has to have the same coverage! This law is a joke! I refuse to be part of it and refuse to pay my insurance company for coverages I do not need! F'ing socialist government! I'll not pay for what I do not need! I will not support their socialist ways! Sue me! You will lose ore this country has become communist!
  • #103
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    Why should I pay for YOUR cancer coverage if I don't have cancer? I do, you know. That's how insurance works. The costs are spread around to everyone. If I'm perfectly healthy and you're a sickly victim of every disease known to man and spend 6 out of every 7 days at a doctor's office, everyone else gets to pay a little bit of YOUR expenses.

    Of course, if you don't pay ANY health insurance then you're shoplifting your medical care and everyone else gets to pay for ALL of it.
  • #134
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    @PayThatCEO Great response. My issue is other unneeded insurances I have to pay for. Maternity, I'm a male! There are many others in the must have insurance clauses that I am fighting! Plus the fact insurance costs are going up constantly! If I was allowed to retain my insurance policy, I would be paying 197 dollars less per month. But I am paying female issues, yet male! That is my issue! Second issue. If we want lower insurance rates.... Why not have over the border "states" bidding! If I got my old policy in Wisconsin instead of New York, I'd save 27%! Per year! And not be stuck with in state insurance! Time to take hold and change our country! I'll stop rambling!
  • #44
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    Assumption that we would live in a paradise where everyone was paid the same so they could afford the cost. That day may come but it is not this day
  • #6
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    Has there ever been free markets like the author talks about in the history of humans? I think they would implode immediately. The way healthcare is in America is fascism, not socialism. The government forces people to give corporations money, that is far from socialism. Same with automobile insurance.
  • #53
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    Yeah, we've had 'free markets' at one point. You were free to work 80 hours a week. You were free to be a slave. You were free to start working at age 8. And you were definitely free to have zero chance of making your situation better. Gotta love those free markets.
  • #55
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    There has never been a truly free society like the author envisions but humanity has come close to it. How do we know it wouldn't "implode immediately"? Well when we came close to free markets, results were excellent. In America in the 19th century after the Civil War, real wages doubled twice. At the same time working hours were greatly reduced. Before that time, the vast majority of people were farmers. Children worked long hours plowing the fields. Also in Hong Kong, poor illiterate Chinese fled China in rafts and built a wealth society on a rock with no natural resources. If you compare industries in America, finance is by far the most regulated industry and it can barely work while technology is probably the freest industry and brings ever better and ever cheaper products.
  • #59
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    @max1 we don't know if the markets would implode or not. that's my guess. Because it's never happened before, the most industrialized and richest countries in the world have massive government intervention. In part because of the nature of international trade. I don't know about the history of Honk Kong, but I know that This is China's century and that that country has massive government control in their markets so things are not looking like they are going to change. In regard to America's high tech industry, most of the research and development into the most powerful innovations has been financed by the government by taxpayer dollars while profits from these innovations have been privatized by corporations. In regard to the finance industry being over regulated, many of the worlds top economists from all over the political spectrum have said the the crash of '08 was because the markets such as derivatives and housing was under regulated.
  • #70
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    @Chomsky0 What I'm trying to say is that. You are right we never had complete free-market capitalism but we have come close to it and the closer we got the better it became. To make an analogy, imagine you are mixing apple juice (free-market) and orange juice (government control/ownership). You observe that the more apple juice you put, the better the taste. You have never tasted 100% pure apple juice but from your experience you can assume with high certainty that it's gonna be good.
    Hong Kong was a small fisher village after WW2. It was placed under British Governorship. The policy was very free-market oriented with almost no intervention in the economy. Today I believe it has more skyscrapers than NY.
    In regard to innovations in the tech industry it is true that government finances basic research but that's not the key for success. Government has little to do with Google's algorithms, AMD micro-chip design,... Plus other sectors should benefit from that research. But cars haven't changed in a significant way over decades. Planes haven't either...
    As for the 08 crisis it's quite long to cover here in detail so I'll summarize. Pre 08, the government kept interest rates below the rate of inflation. Coupled with government incentives to increase home ownership, the excess liquidity went into housing. When the dollar was starting to lose its value too quickly, the Federal Reserve raised interest rates, causing the bubble to burst. If you want a complete explanation of the crisis, I recommend the explanation (on youtube) given by John Allison, former BB&T CEO who predicted the crisis (and prevented his bank from making subprime loans).
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  • #50
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    Over the past couple years, I have heard so many people refer to Obamacare as socialist. If it is socialist, why did Mitt Romney sign it into law in Massachusetts?
  • #90
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    We have been living with it in MA for years now and my rates continue to climb and service continues to decline. Many on here have challenged me on this but I am the one who continues to pay more for less! Also I have many friends that work in the local hospital and they see daily the mess the ACA is causing people choosing to pay the fine instead of getting health care or some signing up for ACA paying for a while getting a medical issue addressed then refusing to pay for the plan.
  • #111
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    Both Republicans and Democrats beliefs are at their root the same - based on altruism; it is not surprising that Republicans support and/or can't make a moral argument against any socialist program - only on the details of it are up for discussion (I give you the above).
  • #31
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    Why do you let these hacks write such nonesense?

    The article has no basis in accuracy or reality. Social security has little in common with obamacare. Social security does not require people to fork their money over to private insurance companies.

    Saying it is immoral for someone to have to save up longer to buy a car because they need to pay their taxes is stupid. Taxes are specifically mandated by the constitution, and the writer see's no immorality in requiring taxes to finance death and destruction by the military, but takes offense at paying taxes for health care. The writer is nothing more then a koch brothers hack..
  • #23
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    This guy is a hack, the very fact he's from the Ayn Rand Institute is enough to discredit anything he has to say. The fact is Obamacare is helping, in states where it was openly accepted. The fact is, only red states, that have fought the implementation of the law, are having cost problems. The fact is, it's better than what we had before, and will only be replaced when a president has the backbone to push for single payer healthcare.
  • #140
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    Free market healthcare in the US has produced a market where you can buy USA made drugs cheaper from Canada than in the US and the most expensive healthcare as a percentage of GNP in the world with an infant mortality rate higher than Cuba. There is a line between the edge of capitalism and piracy and it has been crossed.
  • #120
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    And.... they better start figuring out how to fix the bad parts because know one in their right mind is going to try and take away medical insurance from millions of Americans.
  • #115
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    Well Rove's Crossroads GPS is still trying to find that person that has been negatively effected by obamacare without much luck? So they do the next best thing ... LIE!!!

    http://kdvr.com/2014/08/07/castle-rock-woman-...

    Richelle McKim of Castle Rock appears in a new TV ad from Crossroads GPS blaming Obamacare for her having to "go back to work." Her own LinkedIn profile shows that she has worked continuously since 2008.

    DENVER — A new TV ad from Crossroads GPS features a Castle Rock mom criticizing Democratic Sen. Mark Udall for voting for the Affordable Care Act — not a surprising mouthpiece in a race that will likely come down to suburban women.

    But the woman in the ad, Richelle McKim, is actually an employee of an energy company that is among the biggest donors to Udall’s opponent; and her story, which seemingly contradicts information on her publicly available LinkedIn profile, is at least more complicated than the 30-second version hitting Colorado’s airwaves starting Thursday.

    In the new spot, titled “Richelle”, McKim is sitting at her kitchen table with a cup of coffee talking about how “policies coming out of Washington really do affect us here at home.”

    She describes her husband’s decision to start his own business

    “We knew we needed to find healthcare,” McKim said.“Because we were a single income family, we couldn’t afford our plan.”

    On the screen, text appears that reads:“Richelle had to go back to work.”

    McKim’s own LinkedIn profile shows that she has worked constantly since July 2008 — four months before President Obama was elected.

    From July 2008 to May 2010, she worked as an office manager for Mission Basement Company, her husband’s company, out of the family’s home in Castle Rock.

    Since 2010, she has worked in Colorado’s oil and gas industry: she served as assistant to the GM of Wattenberg Anadarko Petroleum from May 2010 to August 2013; since then, she’s been employed as an engineering technologist by Noble Energy, where she works currently.

    Reached by phone Thursday afternoon at her office, McKim explained that she went back to work in 2010 because it was too tough making ends meet on her husband’s income.

    “It wasn’t the Affordable Care Act,” she said.“It was just a financial burden, having a single income for so long.”
  • #89
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    Obamacare isn't even here yet. It's been delayed to protect the ones who blindly voted for it.

    You don't pick a marathon winner at the starting line. You don't judge a book by its cover. And you can't call Obamacare a success until AFTER it's been fully implemented.

    And you can't say we need to reform our immigration laws when they're not being enforced.
  • #95
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    Redux--

    Not to sound repetitious....
    Most Americans have never been exposed to schemes such as this, nor do they have any idea of how gubment run health care really functions in the real world. Simple fact of the matter is, efficiency, quality and cost containment never comes from government running anything! Take a look at gubment run VA health scam.

    The following is a precursor of what will happen when this scam of controlling our lives and one sixth of our economy is allowed to continue in completing the destruction of America as we know it.

    Note: The following examples are countries that have embraced a "single payer" system that this president and his surrogates are directing their efforts towards:
    The failure of the UK "NHS" system is a glaring absurdity -- from the lack of quality care to no care at all. People dying at the hands of incompetence seems to be the norm--

    http://rt.com/news/uk-nhs-health-crisis-049/

    http://rt.com/news/uk-health-deterioration-nh...

    http://rt.com/news/hospital-cover-up-uk-190/

    The Architect of CANADIAN health care admits its a Failure!!
    Note: Castonguay was the co-author of the 1967 Castonguay-Nepveu Report, which set Quebec on the path to socialized medicine. In fact, as time went one, the populace often refers to the National health card itself as a "Castonguette"

    http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/miart...

    http://civitasreview.com/healthcare/father-of...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Castongua...

    "Another example, Angus Reid, a well-respected Canadian pollster, asked Canadians to rate their health care system. When they started doing this polling in 1991, a clear majority of Canadians gave the system top marks: excellent or very good. Last year, when they did the poll again, under one in four gave the system that rating.
    Angus Reid has done other polls as well. A year and a half ago, a poll sent shock waves across the country when 73 percent of Canadians described their health care system as being "in crisis." Reid actually went back and redid the poll six months later: 78 percent of Canadians now thought the system was in crisis"

    (Quoted in part from the following link)

    http://www.heritage.org/research/lecture/buye... )

    In SWEDEN they're opting out of 'Single Payer' Nanny State run health care for the private Insurance market. And for good reasons--"Sweden is often looked upon by liberals and statists as a shining beacon of what all countries should aspire towards"..

    http://lionsofliberty.com/2014/01/22/swedes-r...

    "SWEDEN'S Single-Payer Health System Provides a Warning to Other Nations -- by David Hogberg, Ph.D."
    http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555_Sweden_H...

    The human tragedy of Obamacare's job losses--

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/gracemarieturner/...

    "Gammon's Law"--
    Gammon's Law is what Milton Friedman has named the "Theory of Bureaucratic Displacement" developed by Dr Max Gammon after studying the British National Health Service. In his words, in "a bureaucratic system … increase in expenditure will be matched by fall in production …." Such systems will act rather like 'black holes' in the economic universe, simultaneously sucking in resources, and shrinking in terms of 'emitted' production.
    As Friedman put it: "I have long been impressed by the operation of Gammon's law in the U.S. schooling system: Input, however measured, has been going up for decades, and output, whether measured by number of students, number of schools, or even more clearly, quality, has been going down."[1]

    “Socialized Medicine is the keystone of the arch of socialism.”
    ―Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
  • #106
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    @S-N-A-F-U

    “Seeing modern health care from the other side, I can say that it is clearly not set up for the patient. It is frequently a poor arrangement for doctors as well, but that does not mitigate how little the system accounts for the patient's best interest. Just when you are at your weakest and least able to make all the phone calls, traverse the maze of insurance, and plead for health-care referrals is that one time when you have to — your life may depend on it.”
    ― Ross I. Donaldson, The Lassa Ward: One Man's Fight Against One of the World's Deadliest Diseases

    “In any case, seeing care for certain groups as an excessive cost reflects an arguably perverse way of thinking about health care in terms of human need.[...] In other words, care for the sick is an economic burden only in health care systems where profit is the bottom line and public services are underfunded and politically unsupported - that is, systems in which only market logic is considered legitimate.”
    ― Julie Guthman, Weighing In: Obesity, Food Justice, and the Limits of Capitalism

    The United Methodist Church (UMC), wrote on the page titled "Right to Health Care" on its website www.umg.org (accessed Mar. 25, 2010):
    "Health care is a basic human right. Providing the care needed to maintain health, prevent disease, and restore health after injury or illness is a responsibility each person owes others and government owes to all, a responsibility government ignores at its peril. In Ezekiel 34:4a, God points out the failures of the leadership of Israel to care for the weak:'You have not strengthened the weak, you have not healed the sick, you have not bound up the injured.' As a result all suffer... The right to health care includes care for persons with brain diseases, neurological conditions, or physical disabilities, who must be afforded the same access to health care as all other persons in our communities. It is unjust to construct or perpetuate barriers to physical or mental wholeness or full participation in community.
    We believe it is a governmental responsibility to provide all citizens with health care."
  • #146
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    @PayThatCEO

    Those in favor of gubment run health-scare forgot the musings of our founders, that one is responsible for himself and his families well being, not govt. Those in favor of "BIG SOW" never contemplate the ineffective, poor quality and cost overruns attached to govt running anything! From the very onset of ACA it was diametrically opposed by the majority in this country, as it is today! It is not govt's roll to force anything on the populace without the freedom to choose in such matters! Our previous health care system would have worked just fine as long as govt stayed out of the way by allowing insurance companies to compete with one another across state lines as other types of insurance are allowed to do! This was purposely denied by democrats in congress (for decades) with the hopes of health care being controlled one day by govt for obvious reasons. If Insurance companies were allowed to compete in this venue, all this would be moot.

    "The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself." - Benjamin Franklin

    "A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicity. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address

    Nor is health care a human right as proclaimed by the UMC. In Ezekiel 34, they are talking about the congregations responsibility to care for the weak and poor, not secular govt. Nor does the Bible teach that MANDATORY principals be implied in ANY situation, over voluntary means that Jesus prescribed! Such as taking from one and given to another who hasn't earned it! It seems the UMC is abrogating their responsibly in favor of passing it on to secular govt.! <wink>

    "Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." 2: Cor. 9:7

    "Each has full control over his private possessions at all times." Acts 5:3-4

    "Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith." 1 Tim. 5:8

    IOW, Socialism was NEVER a prerequisite in God's eyes!!
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