• #10
    You and I have a few adversarial conversations...which are always fun...but I would like to simply talk about this one. Do you feel that abortion should just be wide open? Should women and their doctors be able to terminate a pregnancy at any point they choose?

    I am torn on this topic...I do not think abortion should be used as birth control with women getting a few abortions a month because they aren't smart enough to use condoms. I think in cases of incest and rape or to protect the life of the mom...I support it.

    Just a thought. What is yours?
  • #16
    @1971tennessee The only couple I know using abortion as birth control are right wing republicans. Getting a few abortions a month? Biology isn't your strong suit.
  • #18
    @1971tennessee "Should women and their doctors be able to terminate a pregnancy at any point they choose? " - Yes.

    I find the argument that women would choose to use abortion as a means of birth control to be absurd. Although I have no idea how painful the procedure is I do know that it is much more expensive than any type of normal birth control and common sense would say that it probably is quite painful. Who would subject themselves to something like that intentionally as a form of birth control when other birth control measures are cheaper and far less intrusive?

    You should give people the benefit of the doubt. Why is it that you assume that anyone who wants to terminate a pregnancy is automatically a baby killer? Isn't that a pretty negative belief in the quality of your fellow human beings moral stature?
  • #29
    @PNWest Give them the benefit of the doubt? Reality: birth control. Reality: abortion is birth control in the extreme, a means to avoid responsibility, a poor choice with guilty feelings for life after they mature out and realize what they have done, exception is the calloused who would rather party on, and on, get laid, get stoned, get drunk, at the expense of a dead baby who would bring more joy and personal satisfaction than anything.
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  • #6
    Some abnormalities don't show up in any prenatal tests until after 20 weeks.

    Every woman who has an abortion has a reason for doing so. For every ninny getting an abortion simply because she was too stupid to keep from getting pregnant in the first place, there are dozens of women who got pregnant through contraceptive failure or just bad timing and agonized over this decision, as any rational person would.

    In an effort to shame and punish women who become pregnant, states such as OK continue to pass legislation based mostly on Christian religious beliefs with no thought to women in situations like this one. It is HER body, HER pregnancy, and it is no one else' effing business.
  • #34
    Of course, it couldn't be about the "baby". Which is why abortion should be limited to exceptional cases such as this.
  • #180
    You may be reading in papers that Albuquerque is now engaged in a battle to ban abortions after 20 weeks. I want you to know that while there are people that bitterly oppose ANY abortion, there are those of us whose hearts bleed for women that have to go through them, wish they were NEVER necessary, but who nevertheless do NOT want to take that option off the table for women who need to resort to it as a measure of last resort. You, I and many others know, contraception is not even close to 100% effective, and that birth defects happen. You and I and many others know that unwanted children often grow up neglected, abused and crowd our jails and prisons and cost society beaucoup money in a number of ways including crime, dependence, 'ware-housing costs' etc. Abortion is a terrible thing that is quite often necessary, sadly.
  • #216
    @Hillofbeans It's not about the fetus; it's about the born woman and her pregnancy. No matter how hard you worship fetuses, women still get legal precedence.
  • #224
    Oh yes, blame the State, the church, and others, but of course they only do it,
    to shame and punish women, they probably hate women right? Surely it's never the man and woman who caused it. Maybe the State took her to bed.
    It's not a problem of who is to blame, it's a problem of how to handle it right.
  • #232
    @jerbear - Shaming and punishing women who have sex isn't hating women so much as a religious-based attempt to control women.

    As for blame, I'm not sure what you mean. My comment was about many (mostly red) states passing legislation to limit or prevent women from getting legal abortions. OK is the state in question here, but several other states have recently passed laws that either limit or outright prevent access to clinics that perform abortions. So yes, the state is to blame for a lot of pain and grief being experienced by the women in that state.
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  • #2
    To deny this RIGHT to any woman in this incident is beyond cruelty and inhumane. It shows the "pro-life" groups for the total hypocrites they really are.
  • #28
    This is a loaded story. It did not change my opinion about abortion. I've always felt if there is any exception it would be health reasons only.
  • #47
    @Firestorm of course it does. Cases like this are the exception not the norm. Something like this should be the only legal way to have an abortion.
  • #50
    @FordPrefect No. I disagree with that. Freedom to choose. Two things government should no be allowed to use force to affect - freedom and will.
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  • #5
    It is unconscionable that republicans put women in these desperate situations. They simply want to enforce the religious dogma of their masters regardless of the cost to people's lives. It sickens me. It is one thing to ban abortions of convenience and quite another to force unnecessary torture on a family.
  • #223
    Please explain to me how you got Republicans into this situation? There are pro-life people in the Democrat side also, maybe not as much. Question, was it a Republican, or a Democrat, maybe a religious person who put those women into a desperate situation or was the the couple who had sex? Who caused this problem? was she raped by a Republican or Democrat? I think if it is a proven problem as described, then maybe it's okay, but quit blaming the wrong people.
  • #296
    @jerbear Re #223

    Because almost all the time, it is a republican government chopping the ability of a women to get an abortion clinic by clinic till there is only one left in a whole state.... It just a form of control over every woman's uterus...
  • #307
    If I had my way, even the only abortion clinic left would be closed! I am not moved by a complaint that the government might cramp their style, We often enforce rules or laws people don't like, we won't let you run a red light, its a law for the good of all not just one idiot. We won't let you take certain drugs, or burn your house down, think about it, if we tell a woman that Abortion is wrong, are we wrong? It wrong in some eyes, but in just as many its is right.
    Tell you something, the Fetus did not cause the problem! the man and woman did. If someone has to die for the mistake or accident, let it be the ones who caused the problem, kill the man and woman, let the baby live and give it to some loving couple. If you did that a few times, suddenly they would change their minds and be pro-life, what hypocrites.
  • #3
    And if the baby has an abnormality and lives who pays all the costs? If the parents die who takes care of the disabled? A big resounding Not Me from the anti abortion crowd.
  • #116
    I`m anti abortion, My son was born with Holt Orum Syndrom, many surgeries, starting with heart surgeries several months after birth, and many other surgeries over the years,..... "who pays all the cost" easy, the insurance I paid for, pays the cost, there`s no fix, surgeries improved some aspects of his life. He`s now 21 years going to college. Doctors had alot of gloom and doom, But fortunately after his birth , I found plenty of other doctors who had optimism that they could make a difference in his life, and that`s exactly what happened. Major credit to doctors at Milton S Hershey Medical Center, The Childrens Miracle Network, S June Smith Center, and Shriners pediatric Hospital. He`s here for a reason, and will have a decent life, because he was given a chance.
  • #129
    @Troyk I am delighted that your son has done well. Doctors and nurses have seen too many devastating outcomes. At our parents of cardiac kids meetings I recall one child with Holt Oram and had to have it explained to me by my wife (a pediatric nurse).
  • #134
    Extremely rare , in fact, even now many doctors never heard of this and often gather around in groups to talk to us and check him out when were at the hospital. Emotional devastating at first. Fortunately doctors perform medical miracles all the time. While spending great amounts of time in childrens hospitals, and rehad centers I`ve seen many children who were not supposed to live, not supposed to have a quality life, And I see these kids thriving, with a quality of life, In the origanal post I gave thanks to all who had a impact in his/our life, but forgot one. The Ronald McDonald House, I worked everyday, drove an hour to hospital, would stay at the Ronald McDonald House , which is a great place, free of charge. Those who assail our healthcare system, have no clue. We have the best healthcare in the world.
  • #140
    Obviously it`s very clear where I stand on abortion, I don`t go around waving signs, and causing a stir to support my position. It`s my belief , I`ve seen many kids who some doctors basically wrote off, who are alive and making strides at a quality life. And those same doctors at least in my case, have come back to see him. I can`t really fault those doctors , but for many, there is hope for many kids. I`ve seen it. In regards to the family of this discussion, it`s hard for me to fault them in regards to a baby who would have a great struggles, But there`s surprising things happening everyday in hospitals around the country, I personally would not be able to give up hope. And your wife a pediatric nurse, I give her and all pediatric nurses the world of credit , They were there on the front lines to hope, pray, cry with me, they made this alot easier to endure during the difficult times.
  • #141
    @Troyk The advances in medicine, particularly cardiac, are astounding since my son's surgery 23 years ago.
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  • #19
    And no this story does not change my stance on abortion one bit Mary. It is a medical procedure and not a form of birth control.
  • #61
    How did the woman in this story use it as birth control? She couldn't continue the pregnancy because of a medical condition. I wouldn't want to give birth just to watch it suffer and die not to mention the pain and suffering it would put the baby through.
  • #174
    @Darkdreamer Didn't say she did. I said that it was a medical procedure and should not be used as birth control. This woman is the one that NEEDED the medical procedure. Now is that better.
  • #26
    And this is why abortion must remain legal. I think it is ridiculous that this woman had to go through so much to terminate . I would have done the same. It is much more merciful than having him be born and suffering what short life he has. It has to be a choice made by the woman.
  • #7
    Most people against abortion agree her case is a reasonable exception. However, this is far from a usual reason chosen for abortion.
  • #12
    Most people against abortion don't agree that this is a reasonable exception or it would be included in all the anti abortion legislation that is put out by the pro birth legislatures. When they keep proclaiming that life is "sacred" then start making exceptions for rape, incest, life of the mother and now you say they do for birth defects, which I have never heard of before, it kind of makes a mockery of their oft stated principle of innocent life is sacred. It obviously is not, which is why abortion should be legal because it shouldn't be up to someone other than the people involved.
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  • #71
    Why is it republicans always harp about goverment over reach but in every situation including abortions which is Law.
    Republicans , not uncle sam are always ready to probe and violate a womans body to fill their religious agenda.
    An agenda that by the way is not observed with men like Donald Trump who are adulterers according to their religion still only Sanctified in their first marriage.
    Or accepting bribes(lobbying contributions),tax evasion a federal crime by hiding money off shore,
    Jesus paid tribute.
    Out right lying, the speak against their fellow countrymen. How many times that Christ speak evil of Pilate or Herod, a mass murderer ?
    The fact is that religious grounds are always used to justify circumventing Roe v. Wade
    but is not applied towards other Commandments :
    Love your enemies.
    Those who pick up the sword will surely perish by it.

    Then they blaspheme quoting Bible text out of context.
    If you don't work you don't eat.
    Jesus fed the masses withoutever questioning whether anyond of them worked.
    And what about the Samaritan who stopped and helped a wounded Jew,an enemy.
    Carried him to an Inn and paid them to feed him take care of him promising on the way back he would follow up to see it was done?

    But they have installed their own commandments
    and put God's aside:
    no goverment intervention in fact threatening to not feed school kids because their parents have not paid.
    If a child is born with pre-existent conditions tbey feel that insurance should be able to deny coverage to a baby they insisted should be born.
    But viagra use is never questioned and tgere certainly is no question that a man without it will suffer in any way.
    No probes are inserted in a mans rectum to find out if he truly has eds
    there is no problem for coverage whenn it cones to examining him for prostrate priblems or lumps on his testicles.

    It's the utter hypocrisy that is so painful.
    Wonder if Solomon would have had the baby cut in half if the mother didn't respond immediately?
    Was Solomon's decision to resolve thus unusual dilemma orthodox?
    No we have to have good judgement and we are required to obey the law.
    Everyone is accountable for themselves.

    Getting back to you don't eat unless you work.
    I believe, Paul was addressing the saints( Christians) in fact Paul actually mentioned even marriage vows to a non-Christian could be severed
    and a new marriage would not be considered an adultery.

    Jesus said for those that don't accept my sayings
    knock the dust from your sandals and go about your business.
    That means Religions should not force others not accepting Christs message ALONE.
    The Lord causes it to rain on the good and the evil.

    The Oklahomans should be reminded that at Judgement (and all adults are Judged because faith without Mercy or good works is dead) many called and said Lord don't you remember me?
    The Lord said when I was hungry did you feed me?
    When I was thirsty did I get water?
    When I was in prison did you visit Me?
    In all that you have done to the least of these
    you have done to me.
    Get out of my sight and he spit them out like luke warm water.
    Remember these are folks that knew His name not non-believers.
    I'd say its terrible what happened to that woman but even more terrible for those who have done it to the least of these and perish.
    Pray that they find their way even at the last moment like the man on the cross that ask Jesus go remember him.
  • #88
    "It's the utter hypocrisy that is so painful."

    What's painful is it's so obvious to everyone but themselves. Can they really be that blinded by hatred?
  • #55
    And if it happened to you? You remind me of a former brother in law who was anti abortion until he got his girlfriend pregnant. He couldn't arrange for her to get an abortion fast enough.
  • #68
    Sounds like your former brother-in-law was an irresponsible boy. Real men protect their mate and offspring. We don't offer them to be slaughtered like an offering to a pagan God. I understand that if I engage in a pro creative act with a female I may end up with a child to raise and care for. I may remind you of your child killing former relative, but thank God I am not like him in regard to valuing children.
  • #117
    Didn't change mine either Pr0-Lif3, I still support the right for each and every individual woman and family to choose.
  • #176
    I used to be 100% anti-abortion. Then, after 5 yrs trying my neighbor was pregnant with her second child. They were thrilled. She never felt right, though. Every month she felt sicker. Finally the docs did an amnio & CAT scan & discovered the baby had terrible defects. It had no brain, half a heart, it's spine & most organs were outside the body. It was not only going to die, it was killing her. At 7 1/2 mos she had a late term abortion. The doctor who did the abortion forced her to look at the 'baby' so she would know it could never survive & she'd made the right choice.

    My wife & I sent her flowers & a card. We went to their home to offer our sympathy. She was astounded since she knew my 'opinion' on abortion. Since then I've learned Jesus warned one of the greatest sins we make is to judge others. The smallest rule we use to measure others is the one He will use on us. I now let others live their lives & try to keep my personal judgments to myself unless it means real harm to real people.

    I'm more concerned with those who think they have the right to kill these doctors in the name of the 'preborn'. I believe it's up to God to administer justice - not men. If we leave Him to His work & we tend to ours (which is to worship him day & night and to care for our neighbors as our own selves) much of this nonsense will stop.

    As to abortions in general I'd like to see those who scream about 'stop them all!' show their true faith by adopting one or more of the 1. 3 million kids in the US who have no home.( I did. We took a special needs boy who was 5 yrs old. It's hard, but we manage). EVERY anti-abortionist needs to prove they care about 'the Right to Life' by adopting a child before protesting women who use the morning after pill or something else. Until then, they need to SHUT UP. They're hypocrites.
  • #82
    Another case where the "pro-lifer's" care more about the birth rate than the life quality of children.
  • #77
    On the way back to back streets and coathangers., while those with money quietly jet off to other countries for their secret procedures. Thanks alot rightwing that's not principled and conservative, it reactionary and hypocritical.
  • #76
    This just makes me sick, Oklahoma can pass so many pieces of legislation on abortion, yet can't even fix their roads, provide jobs, or take care of their own people. I drive 100 miles out of my way to avoid this state. I feel bad for those that live there and so desperately want to leave.
  • #31
    There should be exceptions but abortion as a means to avoid responsibility is just murder, life does not start with the first breath.
  • #62
    @ErnestPayne Really? So the thinking, feeling, kicking, heartbeating baby is not alive? Sometimes I think you post stupid stuff just to get a rise out of folks.
  • #182
    I would like to give some insight on this topic, as I too have had the exact same situation as this poor young woman. Having found out late in my pregnancy that my unborn child would have a severe birth defect, I decided that the quality of life for my child was not what I wanted to give her. To never speak, to never walk, to never experience life and live the short amount of time on this earth in severe pain is not what I wanted to give to my child. I decided to proceed with abortion, but unlike this young woman, I did not have the means to pay for or travel the distance required because of the horrendous abortion laws in my state. I was refused an abortion and decided my only option was to give birth to my child, and pray she would not resent me for the pain and suffering she could endure. My child was never born. My child passed away inside my womb. And for all you anti-abortion activists, I would like you to know that because of YOUR views, I had to endure the most DIFFICULT and traumatizing experience I could possibly think of. Having a child die inside me, and give birth to a still born infant after preparing my life to take care of this child. So I ask you, what right did YOU have, in deciding how MY pregnancy panned out without ever knowing my individual situation? I would like you all to realize that there are many women who are NOT teenage girls using abortion as a means of birth control, or young girls being irresponsible and not using protection. This was a planned pregnancy, that I wanted more then anything. I could never look a women in the face and deny her the right to terminate a pregnancy, but then again, it's because you don't need to . You vote on a piece of paper never having to meet these women who you are traumatizing. So I would like to congratulate you, and hope one day you never have to experience my story, which is a story I am sure many other women share.
  • #186
    I am sorry you had to go through that. You should have had the right to do what you know was best for you and your unborn. People need to realize that women don't just make this decision lightly but it is the woman's decision to make according to her situation. All we can do is be supportive of each other and vote for candidates who support a woman's right to choose.
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